Should instakills be kept?

@Zaex_Warrior Unfortunately that is the mentality of some players.

 

Keep in mind instakills are hard to balance because they're inherintly unbalalanced. Balancing CTF without instakills is much easier to do and is much fairer to noobs (who's opinion goes rather unheard in this poll because most of the votes are from regulars who are selfish/too used to instakills)

No instakills is much more realistic, as instakills can constantly be considered op

 

I am. are you suggesting that removing the ability to instantly kill someone will somehow result in the game becoming faster? because, as far as I know, you can't get much faster than something happening in an instant

 

Are you suggesting that removing that will make is slower? Just because it's not instant doesn't mean it's not fast.

 

Removing instakills won't make the game faster. It really won't change much about the speed. Sure, heavies and chemists might be harder to kill, but ultimately how fast the game is played comes down to the size of the map.

 

If the game slows down slightly what's the issue? CTF is TOO fast paced at the moment and it takes noobs away.

Noobs hop on and don't really get any info on the game and will either cap or kill***** most likely unaware of the complex class system.

If they cap, they get instant killed when they burst into flames

If they kill, they get assassinated or shot from a player far from his sight.

How is that good for CTF? If we don't slow it down to a degree where a noob can at least react we would have a much bigger server. Let's remember why mcpvp died too:

Hardly any new players because it wasn't noob friendly.

 

yes I am suggesting that, because that seems logical to me. as I said, I don't think there is anything that can happen faster than instantly, so to remove the aspect of instant kill and then claim that the game isn't any slower seems slightly illogical to me

 

Did I say it wouldn't be slower? No. All I stated is that the game won't suddenly become not fast just because you remove insta-kills. Sure insta-kills make the game fast paced. But non insta-kill classes are also fast paced, just not as fast paced. And remember, the goal of this gamemode isn't to get it as fast as possible.

 

I dont see the issue with the game being slower.

If instakills became balanced somehow. If would still mean the noob will be at a disadvantage. Not only would a noob not understand why they were instakilled, but to them the amount of skill required to pull of one was "bull****". People constantly praise Archer for being " balanced" because it takes "skill" yet its infuriating to die by them, especially for noobs.

 

what you're talking about is the current game though. I do agree that the current game is really unbalanced but, with reference to the original point of the thread, if there is a high degree of balance between classes then noobs should realise fairly quickly how these counters work which should make the game more noob friendly too

 

@November please explain how instakills can be balanced while still being useful.

 

That

That's not possible even if the game was balanced. It's like expecting me to know how the balance in league is without any prior knowledge at all. As a noob, an instakill is me dying by somebody I couldn't fight, even if its balanced in some way.

 

ok, i'll try my best to explain why i think it is bad to slow the game down. if you consider how current counters work then you'll see that to counter buffed heavy you need instakill, to counter chemist you need instakill, to counter normal heavy you need instakill to do it effectively, to counter soldier you generally need instakill. in team matches basically every team will use a pyro in the match. why? because it's an incredibly good defensive class. a lot of teams use assassins and archers, again, because they're really good defensive classes. if we remove the instakill aspect of these classes then we're undoubtedly going to see nerfs to other classes. i could see soldier being nerfed, chemist being nerfed, ninja being nerfed, and medic being nerfed because, without instakill, they'd just be a level above every other class and arguably make the game even more unbalanced. i believe that with a nerf to all of these classes the game would slow down considerably when compared to how it was before.

i value the fast paced aspect of ctf cuz it's one of the main reasons i enjoy the game. i've mained chemist, ninja, archer and assassin, which are all classes that i'd consider fast paced, and i've got a lot of enjoyment out of playing them. if i were to have got my 100k kills from playing mage, necro, engi and medic then i can be fairly certain i would've quit a hell of a long time ago cuz i dont find the enjoyment in those classes because they're really slow to play

that's beside the point. the point is about having:
a) a balanced game without instakill
b) a balanced game with instakill
and i'm arguing for a balanced game with instakill

 

This still doesn't explain why a slower game is an issue. Also, if everything is nerfed/changed that ultimately means the pace is kept for the most part. If instakills were removed and the classes stayed as is we'd see a big slowdown, but if everything is altered that means the pace is mostly preserved, barring the instakills being gone.

If everything is balanced, then the pace shouldn't be much slower than it is now, but slow enough to promote noobs to play.

 

Soldier and chemist need a nerf as of now, even with instakills imo. If we work out instakills, then of course other classes would have to be changed. But, it;s all about how we change the instakills to keep the game fast paced. Pyro will likely have a quick damage method, same with assassin. So they can still counter soldier and chemist, it just might actually take some skill and PvP.

 

To counter Heavy, use Chemist / Ninja. To counter Soldier, use Chemist / Pyro, not necessarily with insta-kill, just fire damage. Ninja, in my opinion, at least, isn't "a level above" the others, because it's generally countered by Heavy and Chemist and Mage and Engineer and Necro and Dwarf.
Medic isn't "a level above" the others, because it's generally countered by anything with higher damage output, unless the medic in question is teaming with another. Soldier does need a nerf, given, but that is with or without insta-kill classes. Chemist is in the same boat, but it's generally not too great against Ninja and itself.

Notice I've listed almost all of these counters without mentioning insta-kill classes, with the exception of pyro's fire damage.

Regardless of these things, however, it is true that insta-kill classes can counter things. I'm just saying they don't do it exclusively.

 

the reason I view slower gameplay as an issue is because I find it more boring. I'd say its fairly obvious that the faster classes are more fun to play. if you compare the amount of archer games played to dwarf games played, or pyro games played to mage gamed played, or any fast paced class to any slower paced class, then you'll see the faster paced classes will have more games played, which would suggest people enjoy them more. if I recall correctly there's only one player with over 1k dwarf games, and that's keithkinda, yet there are people with over 6000/7000 ninja games.

I disagree with the point that if instakills are removed but everything is balanced then we'd still see the same pace. I can't see how you can claim that when, if we're to maintain a level of balance in the game, other classes will inevitably need to be nerfed. nerfing a class doesn't lead to faster gameplay, at least it doesn't with my definition of fast gameplay.

 

Are you ignoring my posts @November ?

I've explained how gameplay can maintain the close to same speed a few times. It's all in how you rework the class. Quar has a thread about pyro reworks, all which could be used as a counter to soldier and heavy.

 

Keep in mind that the nerfing that takes place involves almost every class. If everything is nerfed then we're essentially at the same speed. Imagine Heavy getting Iron armour instead, but at the same time Soldier gets Chain and Stone. Just because it's a nerf doesn't mean the game will slow down too much.

And dwarf is an extreme example of alow gameplay, its obvious the game would never reach that pace. Your fast paced enjoyment is at the expense of noobs.

 

no i'm not ignoring you, it's just difficult to reply to 4 different people at tthe same time while still giving a decent reply.

I agree with chemist, it definitely needs a nerf. I don't think soldier needs a nerf but I definitely think its needs changing. it's too dependant on maps and so many maps are badly viewed cuz they are soldier op. when I made my ctf maps the number one thing I had to consider was soldier so, yes, i think it should be changed.

with changing classes, it all has as knock on effect. if pyro is nerfed, ninja capping will become incredibly op, so ninja will be nerfed. if ninja is nerfed then we'll need a way to effectively recover more, so another defensive class may be buffed or other offensive classes nerfed, which just creates more imbalance. to me, changing instakill just seems to create more problems than it fixes. sure, it might be more noob friendly, but noob friendly isn't the primary objective of this debate, it's about whether the classes are balanced or not. and i believe that removing instakill will create more imbalance than it will balance cuz of these knock on effects i have stated.

well, i guess it's just personal preference now, but i like ctf a lot because of how strong and powerful everything is. my first main was ninja and then i switched to archer, it's just something i have always liked about the game. i'd rather see ctf stay with the use of stronger swords/tankier armour, but as i said, i guess that's just personal preference.

yes, dwarf is an extreme example but the point still stands. fast pace seems to be more enjoyable than slow pace.