Should instakills be kept?

1: There are two 1s
2:What "flames" are you talking about? Fighting fire with fire is the best way to put out a weaker fire. If the "fire" you speak of is teamwork, by all means fight teamwork with better teamwork
3: See my previous post

 

With what KRider said, instakills create more opportunities for teamwork. I assure you, you won't be able to get past some pyros without teamwork unless your a medic. I think it makes the game more challenging when you have to come up with a way to distract the pyro so someone can steal.

 

Considering the fact CTF is about bringing one object from the enemy to your object and not kills, Yeah that's pretty much teamwork.

 

Agreeing with most of this, but take this scenario:
A team of pros plays another team of pros. One team is limited to heavy and Mage (considerably some of the most UP/least specialized classes). The other is limited to archer and assassin (the two instakill classes that will remain because pyro is going byebye). It would certainly be a close game, but the non instakill a would win. What can we then conclude? Instakills can be avoided with skill.

Actually, they create teamwork via combining classes. Take pyro: easily killed by a ninja. Add in a heavy: not so easily killed.
Take assassin: easily killed by... Anything. Add soldier: your flag is gone. A soldier+ assassin combo is one thing that can decimate pretty much any defense under 5 people.

 

Can we just give everyone a wooden sword? No armor?

 

1. Just do 1a and 1b
2. I am talking about instakills.

 

Aight, there's a lot wrong here.

First, let's keep this in mind: This is still, as a rule, a highly hypothetical subject. As such, making claims like "A lot of players don't want the instakills to change though" are moot, as if the game were to be perfectly balanced, it all comes down to personal preference. If more players would be OK with a balanced system with instakills, than that's that. It does you no favours to insult them for their hypothetical preference biases.

Speaking of bias, you should be careful, yours is showing. How can you possibly claim that "it's impossible to balance instakills". Please give the data and the research you've done into the situations that would make it impossible. As such, all you are basing that off of is your apparent vehement dislike of the instakill system making you make such a claim, even within this hypothetical situation where anything is possible within the realm of discussion. You don't even seem to be willing to accept the idea that more players would be OK with a balanced instakill system, instead seeing fit to call out other players for their biases that aren't yours.

And again, a hypothetical balanced situation is different from real life. It's fruitless to describe what's wrong with the current instakill classes when we're talking about an entirely hypothetical situation. It's like saying: Archer would still be a broken class even if it were fixed. It makes no sense.

So yeah, my point here is it's not right to call someone out on a bias when yours shows just a clearly. Don't get caught up in whether or not they're broken now, because literally everyone knows that. It's more about whether you like the concept in a balanced environment or not. Of course there's going to be bias, that's how it works: you make decisions based on prior likes and dislikes.
For the record, nothing against you. I've just got a thing for strong, absolute statements that really rubs me the wrong way.

((((This goes for anyone who's getting salty about this discussion, guys. If we wanted salt we'd go to Mcdonalds.))))

 

You assume I care lol. I like playing assassin. I like instakills. I paid a lot of money to the server. So naturally I want to keep them.

 

Instakills should be removed because I just played a 20 minute game with only 1 capture because there was 1 pyro on their own watching the flag the whole time making it impossible to grab.

Yeah um ignore my deaths i kept trying to get the flag and dying from being instakilled.

 

It's still a never ending stalemate if you throw in instakill defense anyway. So what's your point?

 

I'd just like to point out that I've never seen a newbie complain about instakills.

 

Read the chat

 

- This just says to me that we should have to try harder at the mercy of instakills. I'd have to be more aware of my surroundings, while the instakill user won't have to.
- I've already said it before. There's still the whole stalemate caused by instakills just destroying everything that even tries to steal which is a topic you guys seem to keep avoiding.
- Your point on instakills preventing one team from being on top too long basically says that "if ur losing use the instaskills to make a cumback@!" If one team is flooring the other team, then maybe they deserve to be flooring them instead getting punished in the form of getting instakilled easily by someone they were outplaying? Why should being able to type a command in chat to change classes be considered skill?
- As for the Heavy/Chemist argument, we're talking about the theoretical balanced no instakill. Heavy and Chemist would be weaker in terms of not dying for one of the first priorities.

Thanks for saying that you need teamwork to take down non teamwork and showing that Pyro is OP by needing teamwork without being forced to switch classes to take down.

 

1: Instakillers still have to worry about other players and other instakillers. It is just as easy to die from a assassin as easy it is to kill as an assassin. If you look at the armor for all three instakill classes, Archer has chainmail, Pyro with leather and Asssassin with just some golden boots. They aren't built to take much damage, that's why you see chemist able to straight up destroy Pyro despite the risk. Instakill classes are on the fragile side and just because they CAN kill you in one hit doesn't mean they always will.
2: Yes stalemates exist thanks to instakills but also can be ended by them.
3: The better team will always win, I'm not syaing the losing team will always win, just saying instakills gives the other team reason to stay awake and may not always not guarantee a victory. There are times when the enemy team loses focus and in a sense, loses the game, instakills just makes losing focus that more dangerous.
4: "we're talking about the theoretical balanced no instakill. Heavy and Chemist would be weaker in terms of not dying for one of the first priorities." No, No we are not. We are talking about a ctf where the three instakill classes were removed, Not an alternative reality where everything is balanced, just a ctf with Archer, Asssasin and Pyro.

Rohai never said anything about killing the pyro, he was talking about distracting said pyro to make a steal. He also mentioned one medic not multiple so he never said you need teamwork to "take down" non teamwork, he said you need may teamwork to steal.

 

- And so to combat that, the instakill defense meta was formed when they're still just as capable on offense. And armor is almost irrelevant if they still only need 1 hit for you in the end. It doesn't matter if I land 9182409128308129038 hits on a Pyro or Assassin, I still go down in 1 hit. This makes the fight more of a 50/50 unless the skill level is 3 year pro compared vs first 2 minutes. Great and fun game design unless you like to hope on them screwing up.
- But they're still caused by them in the end. How about we just get rid of the source of the problem?
- And if the other team falls asleep even without instakills, it's still bad for them and they could still lose and they're always there as the crutch to fall back on. I've played so many games where the other team came back and won because they started using instakill classes, even though my team still fought hard till the end.
- 9/10 people against instakill are in favor of reworking the instakill classes to ones that can deal with higher armored classes better. Not flat out remove them. Nobody ever wanted to get rid of those classes completely, nor was it in mind of the balanced CTF without instakills.
- Whatever. Your point stands on distracting them. I still don't know how I feel about how much is needed against a one man defense.

 

I feel likewise when a single soldier/heavy/chemist caps against a 5 person non-insta defence. It goes both ways.

 

1: Earlier I heard a person who's used a class that uses instakills because their computer cannot handle actual pvp, Assassin is easy to prevent instakill from what I've been told, but Pyro is not. A Chemist can take out a Pyro according to what you're saying. This means CTF is really pay-to-win because you have to buy Chemist class to kill the opposing teams Pyro(s).
2: No comment really since I've never heard the word stalemate before, but I'm guessing without instakills it makes it harder to attack the opposing team. Well guess what friend, there was one time where Pyro and Assassin classes did not exist in MCPvP, and other kit/class CTF servers in the past that do not have instakill classes and no one complained "WE WANT AN INSTAKILL CLASS BECAUSE WE SUCK AT PVP". Either you know how to PVP or you don't. People with no skill shouldn't be getting a free pass to just instakill the opposing team.
3: "Instakills cause the other team to stay awake and may not always guarantee a victory." Yes. When there is someone who can instakill I do change my attack pattern but that doesn't always work. Sometimes no attack pattern works. Most of the time it just makes it a game of how do i stand in the flag area without getting hit by a Pyro's arrow which is pretty much impossible most games with good pyros. I normally have to wait for someone to lure them out and sometimes that doesn't work. No. They do not Guarantee a victory. They pretty much guarantee a game with no captures. (If its Pyro, Assassin is easy to dodge if you know what your doing or at least so I was told and it did work.)
4: First off, Archer shouldn't be removed, just instakilling should be removed. Assassin can be removed if they want, a way to dodge an assassin is left clicking your sword and holding. Pyro can either be changed or removed, maybe they can instead of making it instakill, just cause the other player to catch on fire.

 

1. You can counter a pyro with medic. Medic is a free class.
2. Stalemate means it's a draw. Not all instakills require no skill. Archer requires some skill to get used to it. Instakill aren't a free pass to kill the opposing team. All these classes have counters.
3. I would suggest playing medic if there is a pyro in the flagroom. It is easy to get past a pyro with teamwork. It works 7/10 times to just distract a pyro. Ctf is a team game. Instakill classes do not guarantee a stalemate. They guarantee a fast paced, challenging game.
4. Learn how to counter the classes. I do agree that some classes need to be reworked. Pyro would be incredibly up if all they would do would make the other person get on fire.

 

Defensive pyro can be countered by medic, chemist, ninja and assassin. Midfield pyro can be countered by all of the above, along with archer, elf, engineer. I wouldn't call in un counterable