Idea Possible Dwarf Rework

Literally not what I said at all.

I'd rather Dwarf be as it is now and wait for a better rework to surface, because substituting a bad class with a bad rework is just pointless work.

 

every1 has his own opinion

why dont u write a rework for dwarf instead of waiting for a better one?

 

Because it's futile in the end to even try, the best one can do is give criticisms to whatever reworks appear.

 

Seems a little over the top, ctf classes should be simpler.

 

Dwarf doesn't need a rework in my opinion.

 

Dwarf is the most OP camp class. Sit in the flag for a minute and you can basically 2 hit everything.

 

Get rid of dwarf imo

 

Dwarf is good as is though. It takes patience and the highest level you could get is around 27 (correct me if I'm wrong) due to the 30 minute time span. People will continue to complain about dwarf because they don't like to wait. Which I've seen a lot in CTF.

 

The problems I keep seeing with all the dwarf reworks is that everyone wants high damage, high armor, AND high mobility, but the sad fact is that one or more categories have to suffer to improve another. I think someone had the right idea making dwarf the most immobile class.

The current version is really stereotyped. The movement is stuck at slow 2. There's no way to gain sprint. There's no downside to charging an opponent, albeit slowly. Lastly, there's no downside to sitting in one spot all game.

Dwarf as a class is just boring. You sit there and crouch and wait forever for someone to come. It has a niche to fill, but that niche is too small. Movement speed is the primary hindrance. Maybe nerfing the sword and buffing the movement in some way would result in a more versatile class that people might actually be inspired to play.

Instead of giving dwarf items you should give it abilities instead. I've seen a lot of people in the past mention a dashing ability. That might too fast for dwarf. I'm out of ideas.

 

Please be joking. Most players want a dwarf rework because it is OP,not boring(or both).

Is this a joke? Dwarf is not only OP, it's boring to play. Once dwarf gets to a certain level, the dwarf is almost impossible to kill.

 

If you are really a mage main, you should be able to take out a dwarf with ease. Or are you just another guy who mages like a drunken mosquito?

 

How about we keep it so the dwarf gets levels as it crouches, but every so many levels one of the weapons replaces an enchant on the sword?

 

Wow! Oh boy! I just knew this idea was important once I saw that a mod had posted it!

My thoughts in a conversation me and @Nohox had yesterday:

Spoiler

nohox [1:47 PM] It is not too complicated, you get stuff you need to right click to get weapons
nohox[1:48 PM]1:48but we thought of removing that and just give you the weapons directly after 20/100 hits
admiral_munson [1:48 PM] that's a better idea ^_^
nohox [1:48 PM] to make it less comlicated
nohox[1:48 PM]though it takes away the dwarven feel a bit
nohox[1:48 PM]and steak might be 2 because it's basically a better heavy
admiral_munson [1:49 PM] okay then just make it to where every time you play the class your skin is re-textured to make you look like Gimli or something
admiral_munson[1:49 PM]if you want it to be super Dwarfy
admiral_munson[1:49 PM]I think this idea also has a bit of conflict in what it wants Dwarf to be
admiral_munson[1:49 PM]the shield encourages some defensive gameplay because of slowness
admiral_munson[1:49 PM]but as you said it is a lot like a better heavy
nohox [1:50 PM] You can choose whether to use the shield or not
nohox[1:50 PM]If you use it, you're as slow as the current dwarf, but get resistance
nohox[1:50 PM]so that's better for defense
admiral_munson [1:50 PM] well someone playing this class would probably choose to use it since its so good
nohox [1:50 PM] the axes can be used for defense but for offense too if you don't have slowness
nohox[1:50 PM]mhm
nohox[1:50 PM]nom wants to set up a completely seperate server to test class changes
admiral_munson [1:51 PM] cool
nohox [1:51 PM] instead of testing them on the public ones directly
nohox[1:51 PM]just so we can see what's really bad and good
admiral_munson [1:51 PM] am I being included in something?
nohox [1:51 PM] nah I was just asking for an opinion xD
admiral_munson [1:51 PM] LOL
admiral_munson[1:51 PM]okay whatever I had to ask ^_^
admiral_munson[1:52 PM]here's my take on the rework
admiral_munson[1:52 PM]I think it's a decent rework, it makes Dwarf MUCH more balanced for the large part
admiral_munson[1:52 PM]by taking away the unlimited damage etc etc
admiral_munson[1:52 PM]I like how it expands Dwarf's role in the game as well
admiral_munson[1:53 PM]a couple of my issues with it include the fire aspect
admiral_munson[1:53 PM]that's not a good thing to have in a game where Pyro can instant kill anyone on fire
admiral_munson[1:53 PM]so I'd recommend taking that out and replacing it with something else
nohox [1:54 PM] keep in mind the fire only comes on the diamond axe, and that axe only comes up once every 100 hits
admiral_munson [1:54 PM] unless this is one of those ideas like mine and chaos' Archer rework where its supposed to be part of a great big CTF rework that fixes pyro and or removes instant kills
nohox [1:54 PM] it's a pretty rare thing
admiral_munson [1:54 PM] oooh
nohox [1:54 PM] the axes are one hit then break
admiral_munson [1:54 PM] ya
admiral_munson[1:54 PM]still I dont see much of a point with the fire aspect
admiral_munson[1:55 PM]with it being as rare and weak as it is
admiral_munson[1:55 PM]why have it in there?
nohox [1:55 PM] because it adds a little bonus plus an aspect the old dwarf had
nohox[1:55 PM]knockback, sharpness and fire aspect
admiral_munson [1:56 PM] True
nohox [1:56 PM] sharpness is in the true damage, knockback is included, so I thought it would add a little fun to give it fire aspect, if it's one time use only
nohox[1:56 PM]plus, pyro will be changed anyway
nohox[1:56 PM]so the whole fire = instakill will either be nerfed or removed
admiral_munson [1:56 PM] oh so it is part of a bigger rework :O
admiral_munson[1:56 PM]hehe ^_^
nohox [1:56 PM] well, we might be pushing a few class tweaks at once
admiral_munson [1:56 PM] mmmhmmm
nohox [1:57 PM] nom suggested soldier to only have wall climb at the sides of blocks
nohox[1:57 PM]could be a start
admiral_munson [1:57 PM] Nohox would you mind if I included this Dwarf rework in my gigantic CTF 2.0 Rework? (obviously crediting you)
nohox [1:57 PM] ofc, if you fancy
nohox[1:58 PM]if the community reaction is not totally -1, it could be tested
nohox[1:58 PM]like engineer, which had this forum post to get community feedback as well
admiral_munson [1:58 PM] wait wait I'm reading more of your post
admiral_munson[1:58 PM]Im trying to find things wrong with it
admiral_munson[1:58 PM]xD
nohox [1:59 PM] pfff
nohox[1:59 PM]there is nothing wrong
nohox[1:59 PM]everything is perfect
admiral_munson [1:59 PM] LOL
admiral_munson[1:59 PM]here's my main concern
admiral_munson[1:59 PM]and this will take me a couple minutes to type so wait a second
nohox [1:59 PM] go for it
admiral_munson [2:01 PM] My only other problem with this rework is that it this Dwarf doesn't work all that well in the field contrary to what you claim
admiral_munson[2:01 PM]this Dwarf has a ton of armor but in a fight against Heavy it will not have an easy time
admiral_munson[2:01 PM]because its armor is lower and its health pool is no higher
admiral_munson[2:01 PM]sure Dwarf has the shield but there is 1.5 seconds of slowness after using it
admiral_munson[2:01 PM]and mobility is 50% of combatability
admiral_munson[2:02 PM]I know about the axes
admiral_munson[2:02 PM]but the issue there is that it takes so many hits to actually get one
admiral_munson[2:02 PM]that they are not nearly as useful as they could be
admiral_munson[2:03 PM]If this Dwarf were to fight a Heavy or two Heavies it would almost certainly have lost a lot of its health or would be killed by the time it could use its axe
admiral_munson[2:03 PM]assuming that the Dwarf had not fought anywhere else
admiral_munson[2:03 PM]Dwarf's effectiveness in the field is further diminished by Archer
admiral_munson[2:04 PM]If Dwarf were to try to fight an Archer it could not use its shield because Archer could knock it back and or headshot it
admiral_munson[2:04 PM]because of the slowness that Dwarf gains while using the shield not to mention after using it
admiral_munson[2:04 PM]1.5 seconds is a lot of time in CTF and that could be time to dodge an arrow or whatever
admiral_munson[2:05 PM]Dwarf does get a lot of resistance while using the shield and that's fine but it creates a dilemma where Dwarf needs to use the shield a lot to stay alive in the field but at the same time it cannot use it too much otherwise it is dead
admiral_munson[2:06 PM]furthermore, this class does not work that well in defending the flag because it has lost a TON of the power that it currently has
admiral_munson[2:06 PM]sure its axes are strong but it takes 100 hits to get a diamond axe
admiral_munson[2:06 PM]and 20 to get a gold one
admiral_munson[2:06 PM]and in the meantime Dwarf is only as strong as a Heavy
admiral_munson[2:07 PM]but has no real consistent capability to defend the flag like current Dwarf does
admiral_munson[2:07 PM]thus the problem with your rework in fact, is that not only does it not work in the field
admiral_munson[2:07 PM]it does not work particularly well anywhere
admiral_munson[2:07 PM]in its current state that is.
admiral_munson[2:08 PM]I like how you encouraged more mobility in this Dwarf rework
admiral_munson[2:08 PM]I think that is definitely something that should be strived for. However, the issue is like I essentially stated above - this rework makes Dwarf into a class that does not have any particular role in game
admiral_munson[2:09 PM]but makes Dwarf another Elf class, a class that can do something in most roles but is not particularly good at any of them
admiral_munson[2:09 PM]and that is a problem because when people buy a premium class they are not paying for cool abilities, they are paying for something fun and engaging- something that gives them a big advantage in one area or another
admiral_munson[2:10 PM]and let us say this Dwarf rework actually happened. I don't see it being particularly popular because why would you buy this Dwarf when you can do everything it can do, and some things better by using Heavy or a different class?
admiral_munson[2:10 PM]or when you can buy Chemist, which can do literally everything? (I know that is a separate issue)
admiral_munson[2:11 PM]okay you can respond now. My fingers are tired ^_^
nohox [2:11 PM] what a wall of text xD
nohox[2:11 PM]k
admiral_munson [2:11 PM] I hope I made some sense I was doubting myself a little
admiral_munson[2:11 PM]and dude Im the guy who is typing up a 13,000+ word CTF rework. What did you expect? lol
admiral_munson[2:12 PM]Miskey said something slightly similar to what I was thinking btw
nohox [2:13 PM] So regarding the last few sentences, this is a problem we're having in CTF right now. We're trying to find niches for classes, roles they can fulfill, but most roles are already filled. Mage doesn't cover any specific role, and yet it is in the game and working (sort of). Elf does the same, yet worse job at it. Dwarf however is a class that actually has a role, namely strict defense of the flag room
nohox[2:14 PM]However since that is kinda boring as you can see right now with flag camping dwarves with slowness and it's not really played a lot compared to other classes
nohox[2:14 PM]dwarf could hold much more potential, thus it was given a shield to keep the defense aspect but still retain it's tanky character for the rest of the battlefield, which is why slowness had to go
nohox[2:15 PM]and heavy is a free class with the most basic abilities you could get, steak and a sword that's it. Dwarf is also part of that tanky role, but it needs to differ a bit from heavy, since it is premium
nohox[2:15 PM]chemist does fulfill the same jobs yeah, but in another way
nohox[2:16 PM]actually most classes to the same thing in several ways
nohox[2:16 PM]which is why they are more or less balanced to each other
nohox[2:16 PM]more or less, there are exceptions that need to be tweaked
nohox[2:16 PM]like pyro, like chemist, like dwarf
admiral_munson [2:16 PM] would you like to read my 5,500 word response to everything you just said?
admiral_munson[2:17 PM]
nohox [2:17 PM] lol xD
nohox[2:17 PM]nah
nohox[2:17 PM]that'll develop into a full argument
nohox[2:17 PM]but thanks for your view of things
admiral_munson [2:17 PM] haha no problem
nohox [2:17 PM] I have so far received great, too complicated and the steaks need to be tweaked - responses
nohox[2:18 PM]this is just the general idea of the next dwarf, the fine tuning needs to be done during testing
admiral_munson [2:18 PM] just to clarify my argument a little bit: all my criticisms about how this Dwarf has a lot of issues in the field right now, is largely because of the ridiculous state of the game
admiral_munson[2:18 PM]like Archer's insane imbalance
nohox [2:18 PM] engineer for example got a sharpness 2 pick and not sharp 1
admiral_munson [2:18 PM] uh
nohox [2:18 PM] mhm
admiral_munson [2:18 PM] yeah I heard about that
admiral_munson[2:18 PM]I was like 'wut'
nohox [2:19 PM] sharp 1 wasn't enough to make it a main weapon
admiral_munson [2:19 PM] Engineer's way too dependent on its turret imo
admiral_munson[2:19 PM]anyway thats beside the point
admiral_munson[2:19 PM]this is about Dwarf!
nohox [2:19 PM] anyways, yeah, if dwarf looses slowness it behaves much like the other classes, but it's still unique enough imo. And since mojang didn't release any major gameplay additions to minecraft, we had problems coming up with stuff as well
admiral_munson [2:20 PM] that wasn't really my point
admiral_munson[2:20 PM]I mean yeah that's true
admiral_munson[2:20 PM]but my point was is that the shield both harms and helps Dwarf
admiral_munson[2:20 PM]well that was one point among others..
admiral_munson[2:20 PM]and it does so because of Archer. I don't see how this Dwarf can really deal with Archer's knockback
admiral_munson[2:21 PM]if it uses the shield it gets slowed way too much and you know how that works. If it doesnt use the shield then it loses health faster
admiral_munson[2:21 PM]say you were to remove Archer knockback (which should be removed) it doesn't make a difference in how this class is basically a glorified Heavy
nohox [2:21 PM] The shield isn't supposed to be used in offense, otherwise people will do the same thing like elf, shield and fight while switching between the two
admiral_munson [2:22 PM] I'm saying that it harms Dwarf's ability to fight
admiral_munson[2:22 PM]as well as helping it
nohox [2:22 PM] mhm
admiral_munson [2:22 PM] I know you're not supposed to whack people with the shield
admiral_munson[2:22 PM]Im not sure if you can do that anyway
nohox [2:22 PM] imagine using the shield in the flag room only, so you're basically the old dwarf
nohox[2:23 PM]but you can get out of that role now and pursuit the flag stealers instead of looking them flee
nohox[2:23 PM]I get your point though (edited)
admiral_munson [2:23 PM] woot. I made a point! @tenshirox are u proud of me sensei?
admiral_munson[2:24 PM]sure and I think that's a good thing to strive for
admiral_munson[2:24 PM]but you've made it a penalty to use the shield
admiral_munson[2:24 PM]it makes Dwarf awkward in any role
nohox [2:25 PM] even on defense?
nohox[2:25 PM]and the resistance and slowness can always be adjusted
admiral_munson [2:25 PM] also it shouldn't take that long to get a gold or diamond axe. Maybe change it to 10 and 50 so that way they are more useful and lower the slowness and resistance on the shield^^ those are just my suggestions
admiral_munson[2:25 PM]yeah even on defense
nohox [2:25 PM] k, the numbers can be adjusted too
nohox[2:25 PM]but is the general idea okay?
admiral_munson [2:26 PM] glad to know my opinion is valued so much lol :^)
nohox [2:26 PM] like, axes that deal more damage, get them by fighting, have a shield to be good at defense too
admiral_munson [2:26 PM] dude this is the third time I've told you the general idea is good
nohox [2:26 PM] xD
nohox[2:26 PM]kk
admiral_munson [2:26 PM] but the counterplay in current CTF for this Dwarf sucks
admiral_munson[2:26 PM]but thats fine since the game needs an overhaul anyway
nohox [2:26 PM] yeah
admiral_munson [2:27 PM] I will copy and paste this entire conversation in there
nohox [2:27 PM] lol xD
nohox[2:27 PM]can't you condense it a little
admiral_munson [2:27 PM] no
admiral_munson[2:27 PM]I like showing off how intelligent I am
nohox [2:28 PM] I realised ^^
nohox[2:28 PM]I gtg moderate some servers and telling people off for bypassing the chat filter
admiral_munson [2:28 PM] LOL Its part of my studmuffin imitation
admiral_munson[2:28 PM]:^)
nohox [2:28 PM] cya!
admiral_munson[2:28 PM]yeah ciao

 

It's a good idea and you can tell you put a lot of work thinking about this but it's definitely too complicated, especially for the new players. I still think dwarf needs a rework tbh. I personally like to be able to cap as a solo. Pyros are quite simple to get off you as a chemist but there's no real way to get the flag when the dwarf is sat on the banner block..

I can't think of any way to make them less of a class other than something like this, the shield is a nice touch but the stuff with the axes is too complicated and leveling the sword as you get kills would make more sense to me. It would be like feeding the dwarf to level it up and once the dwarf is leveled up it can actually attempt to cap or something, rather than stood on the flag for 15 minutes killing people.. lol
(Also how don't dwarves get so bored.. Sometimes I get bored just running towards the flag I almost wish I was ninja to pearl over)

 

no
engi is more op and you need lvl 15 to make 2 hits
it thakes more than half of the game (depends what map, how much time and what enemys you have)

dwarf is a defence class
he doesnt need more abilities

it depents how the mage attacks
sure if u damagespellspam than the dwarf is down but spaming is anoying and nooby
if the mage makes one mistake the dwarf hits him and the mage runns away or freezes the dwarf
usually the dwarf isnt alone in the flagroom so if a mage concentrates on the dwarf he will be killed by the other players
he cant attack many ppl at the same time

 

Yea I agree, which is balanced combat in my opinion. Classes shouldn't have a 100% advantage towards each other anyway. But dwarf is kind of UP now, because of the many entrances a flagroom has nowadays. It doesn't take a long time for assassins like roscoe_lim to take out a dwarf when it's easy to backstab them. Also the lack of teamwork. But hopefully this will all be fixed when assassin and other classes get a rework, because of 1.9

 

I think this rework is alright, but it sounds really quite complicated, and honestly I think dwarf is one of the last classes we should consider reworking, there are others that desperately need a rework such as necro, pyro and chemist. I don't think we really need to change dwarf atm.

 

yes if you play mage you are the solution to dwarf snowball. and so is archer to every op class! why are people even writing reworks if archer is the counter to everything?

 

Dwarf is both OP and UP. OP because once a dwarf gets to certain level, it is ALMOST unkillable. UP because the slowness makes it only good at defense. Dwarf needs a REWORK, not a buff or nerf.

 

That's a contradiction.