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Idea Xel's Pyro Rework

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by Xelia_, Oct 3, 2015.

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  1. Xelia_

    Xelia_ (ノ^ヮ^)ノ *:・゚✧

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    As someone who mains Pyro, I decided to take a step in reworking it. Naturally, pyro receives endless complaints about its instakill; completely valid, considering it takes little to no effort to produce it. For the most part, you can efficiently play pyro as long as you can hold down a mouse button and switch between your first and fourth slots in moderately quick succession. A less organised offense can be wiped out by a single pyro in the flag room, who can gain a fairly admirable killstreak, needing no more than to respawn perhaps once or twice per game to reset arrows. Pyro, when used correctly, can be a stable defense class, perhaps even a triumphant addition to recovery or offense. However, this is rarely the case. Pyros in numbers above one are the worst addition to a flag room for the enemy team. It often ruins the game, and has an interesting effect on the chat ragers, to say the least.

    Contrary to popular opinion, I like instakills. They’ve been in CTF since the beginning and, with little of CTF’s beginning remaining, I would enjoy seeing them stay. Doubts aside, please take a look at the below pyro rework. I attempted to keep similarities, remove the overly simplistic manner of the instakill, and yet also leave Pyro as a fun class to play. I already got some feedback, but I'm posting it here to get some more from the community itself. Enjoy, and feel free to suggest changes!

    - Note that armour is left the same.

    Hotbar

    • Diamond Axe [+7 attack damage] - Like a regular axe, deals 3.5 hearts damage per hit. Hitting a player on fire causes them to be instakilled.
    • 5 Steak - As all steak, heals 4 hearts.

    • 1 Harming Splash Pot [‘Molotov’] - Regens every 10 seconds. Throwable item, leaves a trail of fire particles when thrown. Landing a hit on an enemy player has knockback II, and causes the explosion particle effect/sound. Gives the enemy player blindness for 1 second, and deals 2 hearts of damage [regular damage dealt by harming splash pots].
    • Bow - Still works as a regular bow unless fully charged. A fully charged shot works as an explosive shot, but must shoot a player directly to set them on fire. Successfully shooting a player gains 3 sections of the XP bar. Once the XP bar is full [6 accurate shots], the next shot will set all players on fire in a 5x5 radius of where the arrow lands. When a Pyro has a full XP bar, their armour has the enchanted effect. Pyros can set one another on fire, but not instakill. Setting an enemy Pyro on fire will still cause them to receive the strength I buff. A pyro can not set themselves on fire.
    • 20 Exploding Arrows - Work like regular arrows unless a fully charged arrow is fired [see above].
    Other Abilities & Effects
    • Water - Does half a heart per second [20 ticks] damage, and grants weakness I [0.5 attack damage].

    • Fire - Grants strength I [ 130% attack damage].

    • Permanent fire resistance.
     
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  2. Rohaibcheema

    Rohaibcheema Active Member

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    I like it +1
     
  3. November

    November november

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    eh i dont really think standalone pyro reworks work. its looks decent on paper but if ur gonna change pyro u need to change soldier/chemist with it so u have some sort of idea of how balanced things will be after in terms of capping/defending.
     
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  4. Xelia_

    Xelia_ (ノ^ヮ^)ノ *:・゚✧

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    The plan was to rework those 3 classes together anyway.
     
  5. Sir_Inge

    Sir_Inge Well-Known Member

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    I'm not on board with it. TBH, hitting someone directly with a bow doesn't at all take that much effort. Additionally, this would not allow for a soldier rework because the class still requires no teamwork for a garunteed kill, thus making soldier one of the only ways to escape.
     
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  6. Xelia_

    Xelia_ (ノ^ヮ^)ノ *:・゚✧

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    I'm fairly certain it takes effort to accurately shoot someone with a bow, especially since the pyro would have to take this shot fully charged to gain a section of the XP bar.
    How would this not allow for a soldier rework? Pyro does not necessarily require teamwork to make a kill, but it does to upkeep a killstreak. It is easy to miss a shot in an enclosed flagroom, so other defence is necessary to prevent the flagcarrier getting away if the pyro misses the shot. You could escape with any class; this rework relies more strongly on the pyro having a good aim rather than just shooting in the vague direction of a player to stop them stealing the flag. Also, don't forget there is also still medic.
     
  7. November

    November november

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    if there is a chemist/soldier reworked coupled with this then i wouldnt mind seeing it d: i would give a lot more in depth feedback if so
     
  8. Sir_Inge

    Sir_Inge Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it takes more skill, but unless I'm being shot blocked by my own defense, I know that I can dead-on hit the person stealing 9.5/10 times. Because the skill needed to do an instakill is still quite low, that basically makes ninja, medic, and soldier the only viable escape classes along with chemist on occasion. So, basically what I'm saying is that the easy instakill is the problem.
     
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  9. Xelia_

    Xelia_ (ノ^ヮ^)ノ *:・゚✧

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    Originally, pyros just had to shoot in the general direction of a target, then hit them to instakill. Now, pyros have to accurately pay attention and put effort into shots, and perhaps even melee a little to make up for a missed shot. In an enclosed flagroom, I honestly doubt you can hit any person walking into the flagroom every time (Unfortunately, mage does not count). The skill for instakills is now increased, and, with the ability to set enemy pyros alight, it requires further attention to take the shot. Please explain how an enemy pyro couldn't capture? They are pretty hard to counter from a pyro's pov. Or an assassin? Pyro still has no way to counter instakill them. Or a heavy? A shot is pretty easy to miss, and heavies are far superior melee-wise. I don't see the issue here.
     
  10. CrystaliteRyuko

    CrystaliteRyuko Well-Known Member

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  11. Sir_Inge

    Sir_Inge Well-Known Member

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    Those are good counters to solo-pyros. But in coordination with a ninja or two making the pyro lethal to assassin and medic and the pyro still landing almost every shot on incoming heavies, an offense can be shut down. I mean, if an archer can land a shot at 30 blocks away, a pyro can definitely land one at 5. The fact that this rework is still an effective counter to soldier as it is is troubling to say the least. Any pyro rework should be made weak enough that it would obviously be overrun by a soldier or chemist in their curet OP state (so that when they get their nerds everything will be balanced), and that is not the case here.
     
    #11 Sir_Inge, Oct 3, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2015
  12. Turmac

    Turmac Hardcore Games Enthusiast

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    Also, could we have it so they get one shot from elf's water shot from archer headshot distance, because pyro is the OP pretty much unkillable person during a 1v1
     
  13. Xelia_

    Xelia_ (ノ^ヮ^)ノ *:・゚✧

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    How do ninjas affect a pyro's ability to aim? And aiming distance shots is harder than close up shots, especially if you're trying to shoot someone who is hitting you. With the right skill balance, I'd say pyro could be an effective counter to soldier, yes. It can also be an effective counter to any offense. It really depends on the person playing pyro. Pyro will be reworked with chemist and soldier, though they are receiving lesser changes. They will have their abilities adapted to remove the frustrating aspects, such as wallspam and potspam. Neither of these necessarily affect the pyro's defending - if anything, they make it more difficult for the pyro - so this rework would fit accurately with the soldier and chemist reworks.

    Bob suggested something like this. If this rework gets considered further, perhaps having elf's water ability have further damage impact on pyro would be a good idea! ^-^
     
  14. Sir_Inge

    Sir_Inge Well-Known Member

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    1. I edited my post to make actual sense, blame my phone for it's frustratingly small screen.
    2. Soldier and chemist need more than small tweaks. As of now chemists is an armored ninja. Soldier can't be recovered off of without a ninja TEAM that includes several experienced ninjas. So, considering both of these classes need to be stripped of many of their abilities and totally reworked to be equal in ability with the other classes, pyro does too. And, TBH, I agree with NomNuggetNom that instakills have no place in CTF. They make the game inherently unbalanced and were a bandaid fix to some of the major problems. Theese problems are being solved, so I think that we should try and eliminate them.
     
  15. Xelia_

    Xelia_ (ノ^ヮ^)ノ *:・゚✧

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    Well, if the pyro is in coordination with a ninja or two, then that is in fact a defending team, and they should be able to do a great deal of damage to offense. After all, that is the point of defense.
    Chemist.. an armored ninja? Ninja can go invis. It is fast, discreet and good for teaming up to recover. How is this in any way similar to chemist? Chemist is powerful, melee, and hardly discreet.
    I don't see the problem with a team being required for recovery. Recovery shouldn't be easy, and having a team increases teamwork. This is a could thing because CTF is of course a team game.
    Your opinion that instakills should be removed is just that - an opinion. Mine is different than yours. I'd rather you looked at this rework without that opinion set in stone, because I'd rather you considered it than simply dismissed it.
     
  16. Sir_Inge

    Sir_Inge Well-Known Member

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    I simply don't think this is a hard enough nerf on pyro. I think that it shouldn't take a team of recoverers to take down 1 capper and that it shouldn't take a team of stealers to get through on very few defenders. If this pyro nerf went a little further, then maybe in my opinion it would be sufficient.
     
  17. Xelia_

    Xelia_ (ノ^ヮ^)ノ *:・゚✧

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    It wouldn't be a team game if it didn't take a team to recov, a team to defend and a team to steal. I don't want to nerf pyro - I main it, I can have a fair judgement of whether I would still want to main it if it was nerfed into oblivion. I'll respect your opinion, but I'm afraid mine differs. ^^
     
  18. obikenobi21

    obikenobi21 Delta Force Jedi

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    how da faq would a pyro land 6 successful shots on an enemy in a flagroom? That's pretty much impossible just because of some flagroom designs and the fact that teammates block arrows.
     
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  19. EmperorTrump45

    EmperorTrump45 Dank Memer

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    I agree that there were some pretty fun aspects of early CTF but instant kills are not one of them. CTF is a fluid concept. There's no book or law that says that instant kills must be in CTF for it to be a fun game so why keep them? I know that this might seem like a separate argument but if you're going to keep instant kills in a rework I would imagine that the reason for doing so would be something more than 'they have been in the game since the beginning, so lets keep them there'.

    (not going to say much more on that since I already made a huge thread about it :stuck_out_tongue:)

    EDIT: read some of the other posts. I agree this nerfs Pyro's ability to use its instant kill - which is good - but it nerfs it so hard that the instant kill might as well be removed and replaced with true damage effect or something that could be utilized much more easily.

    I think the Molotov cocktail concept is really freaking cool. +1 :smile:

    On the bow and arrows:

    ^^
     
    #19 EmperorTrump45, Oct 3, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2015
  20. Xelia_

    Xelia_ (ノ^ヮ^)ノ *:・゚✧

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    It doesn't have to be on the same enemy. The pyro just has to make 6 shots total without dying.
    Also, teammates don't block arrows. It is just a visual glitch.
     
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