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The Nature of Capture the Flag

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by logicalpencils, Nov 22, 2015.

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  1. logicalpencils

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    The following is used as an example to emphasize a design flaw in CTF, not as a specific complaint against certain classes:

    A Ninja as it currently stands can capture an enemy flag on your average map in about 20-30 seconds from spawn to cap. This statement in itself makes the Ninja sound like a profoundly unfair and broken class; it makes all of the players fighting in the middle of the map essentially useless extras, since the Ninja can simply skip past the whole battle with 1 (maybe 2) ender pearls. The counter-argument for allowing such a ridiculously powerful strategy to exist is that the Ninja is armor-less and therefore easy to kill; it's your own fault if you fail to kill a ninja-capper.

    However, the supposed difficulty of this strategy does not excuse its stupidity (and considering how many times I've seen ninja-capping, I don't think it's really as hard as defenders propose); no one should EVER have the inherent ability to evade the entire enemy team and capture a flag in less than a minute from spawning unless the enemy team is completely ignorant.

    Your whole team can be fighting the good fight, beating back the enemy to their spawn, but a single Ninja can ignore this whole battle and take your team's flag anyways; it has happened to me hundreds of times.

    The only consistent method to preventing Ninja-capping is to stand next to the flag with 6 buddies. The Dwarf class especially encourages this type of camping. But how is having half of your team stand next to a flag to prevent captures any more fun or creative than having a class that can take a flag in under a minute?

    See, the fun part of Capture the Flag, the unique and creative battles, all occur in the body of the map -- that empty space that everyone takes a side route to avoid. And why does everyone avoid the center? Because its easier to just go around the battle, and most maps totally allow this to occur. I used the example of a Ninja and a Dwarf to show the two extremes of this structure: you either rush the flag or camp the flag, or else you fight a useless battle somewhere else on the map that any sensible person would just walk around. This is worse on some maps than others, but I have yet to see a map where the people who fight in the mid-field ever actually leave the mid-field to steal the flag.
     
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  2. xKieran

    xKieran CTFer since 2013

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    Nice thread, quite useful just to see the current status of CTF.
     
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  3. Plautius

    Plautius Well-Known Member

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    with text blocks like yours, I usually start reading somewhere in the middle. I started here^. CTF is not about beating back the enemy to their spawn, therefore it has got nothing to do with the quality of a fight. CTF is rather about capturing the flag, and, if a ninja does so, he obviously has provided for higher game quality than the whole team which exceeds at randomkilling.

    and avoiding the fun, creative middle as you said makes sense because you want to steal with best capturing potential - and that is higher if you are neither headshot by an archer nor being hit by a heavy who forgot this isn't KitBrawl nor being shot half dead by an engineer.

    One heavy or one pyro are by the way enough to stop a ninja from capping.

    Did I forget anything else? Oh yeah, nice pun with the "as defenders propose" thing.

    I'm not allowed to tell you to go drink bleach, therefore I won't.

    Edit: I'm into a lot of CTF gamemodes inside different games and in every single one there are the capping-specific character designs with emphasis on tankiness or mobility.
     
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  4. Deppuccino

    Deppuccino Well-Known Member

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    Managed to read it all, but for the sake of everyone here, I'm not getting myself involved in the discussion. Next, can you make The Geography of CTF for me? That thread's gonna take a long time :stuck_out_tongue:
     
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  5. __Mountaindew__

    __Mountaindew__ Well-Known Member

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    Let's keep this short and simple:
    Sometimes defense is so clustered that only a ninja can sneak by and steal. If they manage to pearl past 12+ people or so... I don't know, maybe they actually deserve the cap? :/
     
  6. BAWSS5

    BAWSS5 Well-Known Member

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    This isn't a problem, man, ctf's a team game! Also don't worry, people have been complaining that the new banners make it hard to ninja cap so everything's OK now.
     
  7. logicalpencils

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    Firstly, it is only easy for a pyro or heavy to kill a ninja if said ninja willingly engages himself to fight said classes, which, if he's going to capture the flag, he will not do. No class can quite catch up with the speed of a Ninja (save perhaps an Assassin), and their ender pearls make the window for ranged attacks limited, if the Ninja is found at all.

    Of course it makes sense to avoid the middle -- that's why everyone does it. My point is that, yes, the objective of the game is to capture the enemy flag. But when the game's objective is disconnected from its functions (team-based PvP), then you've missed the purpose of the game. Avoiding the major battles in order to make it easier to get the flag is very logical, but it makes said players doing all the fighting useless. The purpose of all of these 13 classes presented in the game is to create a variety of unique battles, where players participate in an attempt to get a few team members through the enemy's defenses and to their flag, and then to support these teammates in returning the flag to your base.

    Ninja-capping, excessive amounts of side routes in maps, and flag-camping all prevent these dynamics. They instead replace it with a simplistic, repetitive motion of running to the flag, attempting to grab it without getting killed, and then running back to your flag if you didn't die. It's frankly pretty stupid, bland, and again, defeats the whole point of CTF -- to be a team PvP game, not a speedrun.
     
  8. BAWSS5

    BAWSS5 Well-Known Member

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    Teamwork is overrated man, why rely on people when you can do it yourself?
     
  9. logicalpencils

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    And what does CTF being a team game have anything to do with the problem? CTF is about capturing the flag, and it needs to make that goal something that requires a whole team to acheive -- not one Ninja rushing the flag, not one Dwarf camping their flag, etc. The game needs to grant victory to the team that most effectively fights against the enemy, not the player who found a way to bypass the whole team.

    Because that defeats the whole point of CTF being a team game.

    And the reason the defense is so clustered is precisely because how stupidly easy it is to capture a flag.
     
  10. YourAverageSoda

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    *COUGH COUGH*
    roaming defence is there for a reason.
    *COUGH COUGH*
    damn im really sick.
     
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  11. __Mountaindew__

    __Mountaindew__ Well-Known Member

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    Get some cough meds! XD

    More like people play defense because they want to... Or regulars might play defense because no one is actually playing defense... :/ Capping isn't 'stupidly easy,' either. Well, it does depend on the people online. If you're against a bunch of defenders and recoverers, then you're going to have a bad time. If your against a bunch of randies(@YourAverageRandy TM) then you're going to have an easy time of course...
    I dunno... maybe you would know if you had more than 8 minutes of play time. Unless your an alt of course c:
     
  12. CommunistBelgian

    CommunistBelgian Well-Known Member

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    Go to a doctor @Doctor_Noah
     
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  13. Skarm

    Skarm Active Member

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    I think the main problem is it forces the defense to play in a very uncreative, not fun, way. There are very few ways to stop ninjas other than watching the flag, or attacking where the pearl lands. I've almost never had fun trying to defend a ninja capper. I don't think it takes very much skill to perform ninja caps as compared to other classes, but I've never had fun once the ninja got the flag and I knew the only thing that I could do was hope the ninjas on my team can pearl faster than the capper.
     
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  14. logicalpencils

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    Do you actually think I would make this post with 8 minutes of experience? I've played for about 4 years.

    My point is that most games of CTF entirely consist of randies, defenders, and cappers. In a game whose objective is to capture the flag, both teams should almost entirely consist of offense/cappers. Because, in reality, what difference is there between offense and defense? The sole objective of defense is to kill the enemy team. However, offense complete this goal just as well, on top of actively attempting the goal that matters: capturing. The only real difference between offense and defense is where the player is standing, and where they are trying to go.

    What I'm saying is that a game with an offensive objective should have teams comprised mostly of people actively participating in the objective. The current state of the game, however, encourages people to either go around killing random people you see with no purpose, sit at your flag, or else throw yourself at the enemy base and hope to get out alive. Defense can exist, and needs to technically. But for the most part, the offense should be the defensive line -- just as two warring armies are both fighting to claim the enemy's encampment as well as to keep the enemy from their own. Paths around the focal battle should be limited -- a good map should implicitly funnel players through areas (without going overboard, of course) rather than allowing players to run wild through a gigantic maze. When maps are made to big to make a good defense/offense in, all of the focus pulls back to the two flag rooms, which defeats the point of a map.
     
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  15. __Mountaindew__

    __Mountaindew__ Well-Known Member

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    Nah, I actually doubted that you made it off of 8 minutes of playtime. I kinda wanted to put it out there anyways, though...

    As for the rest of what you said, I don't really have anything that I would argue about. Most of it seems pretty reasonable. And besides, I thought this post was mainly about ninja capturing.. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
  16. Ironic_Gentleman

    Ironic_Gentleman Well-Known Member

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    Yes, except this will never happen. It's not that it's a metagame problem, it's a map and game design problem. It's not even a class problem. It's a problem with the fundamentals of the game design and map design. The game and maps are both built to facilitate the current metagame, which has also proven to be most effective over a period of four years.

    It's just that simple. Ninja capturing is a result of the current metagame, which is a result of map and game design, not of the class' abilities. The class is certainly part of the equation, but if not for the metagame that has evolved, it would always be inferior to Chemist/Medic/Soldier/Heavy capping. It still is, generally. If you have even one other teammate, at least.
     
  17. ACE_BLUE2

    ACE_BLUE2 Sup'

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    Or you could have 1 heavy stare at the flag, and a pyro protecting him. It doesn't take 6 people to watch for ninjas
    Also @oDontDropDaSoapo you've been apparently found out.
     
  18. logicalpencils

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    I know it's a game and map design problem. As I said at the start, ninja-capping was just what i used as an example about the map and game design problem.

    And yes, I get that the chances of completely altering the metagame would require a complete redo of maps and classes, which is obviously not going to happen. I'm just here to point out the flaws in the game design.
     
  19. _Enderfire1602

    _Enderfire1602 Well-Known Member

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    Tbh, would a range limit to the enderpearl do any good?
     
  20. diamond989

    diamond989 Member

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    It used to be where Ninja had 10 enderpearls so you could insta-cap if you threw 2 pearls from one spot , one to your flag and one to the other flag. Now with one pearl it's hard to cap , if you hit a ninja once while they are pearling out its pretty hard to cap after that because of all the people attacking you since the servers are always crowded. I only see a few people successfully capture it as ninja and those people have had a lot of practice with it.
     
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