Ninja needs to change drastically

Where is k r a b in this story chacticon?/?!1!

 

I very strongly disagree with a lot of things in this post and before someone calls me a conservative nutbag please allow me to explain why. Since there's a lot here I'd like to argue against Tenshi's post piece by piece.

I'm not done yet either

Okay there's a couple things I'd like to note here:

It's quite true that Ninja is one of the most popular CTF classes but it's quite a blanket statement to presume that it was one of the strongest or most versatile pre-brawl classes. Take Necro for example, at one time that class had a Fire Aspect, Sharpness IV(?), Unbreaking X Wooden Sword, and 3-4 1 minute Poison II potions before it got reworked and was eventually totally destroyed. Back in 2012-early 2013 Necro was arguably one of the best CTF classes because it was so ridiculously strong. I know this because I played Necro whenever I could back then and it was almost too easy to get a 19+ killstreak. The point here? Ninja wasn't one of the strongest classes in old CTF. Sure it was pretty easy to get 40-50 kills on most maps with Ninja but those were usually followed by another 20-30 deaths and as someone who used to play a ton of Ninja that is exactly how it was.

Furthermore your assumption that Ninja was one of the strongest pre-Brawl classes is also false because... while Ninja was comparatively stronger other classes like Pyro, Engineer, and Necro (all of which have been nerfed to varying degrees) were much more powerful than they currently are and that had a balancing effect on Ninja.

This is important to point out because your entire argument for 'massive change' is based on a false belief that Ninja's overall power in the game has been on the rapid decline since McPVP fell apart. In fact, you assert that Ninja has to rely on 'gimmicks' to be as comparatively powerful with its former self in the second sentence of your post. I have several questions here: What exactly is this former Ninja you speak of? I was around in 2012, I played Ninja when everyone said it was good (or as @Chactation hilariously calls its 'golden age') and as I have already stated, it was every bit as volatile back then as it was today.

To add to that, why do you say that it is a one-trick pony class? Sure, Ninja's main asset is mobility but it can be an effective class in capturing, recovery, offense, and defense. I'm sure you will explain your reasoning for this statement in depth later on in your post so I won't dwell on this any longer for the time being.

What? What are you even saying here? I'm quite confused. I'll try to break this down the best I can:

You seem to be saying that Ninja is weak compared to Chemist. That is mostly true. Then you go on to state that Ninja has only one ability that distinguishes it from Chemist, which is its excellent mobility. Partly true. Then you say that Ninja can get clutch captures because it has enderpearls. Also true. Then you somehow conclude that Ninja can capture with the slightest distraction. That is false.

Still not sure where the logic is going here but as I understand it you're saying that Ninja's only better than Chemist in a way that is bad for CTF gameplay. And somehow, you have concluded that enderpearls are bad for CTF gameplay because they supposedly guarantee a Ninja capture with the slightest defensive weakness.

This logic simply does not follow. Here's why:

First of all you have made a huge blanket statement that Ninja's enderpearls allow Ninja to capture off a defense with the slightest weakness. That is massively exaggerating Ninja's capturing power for one thing, and for another it is assuming that everyone playing Ninja is highly skilled at the class or assuming that Ninja capping is absurdly easy. You have even stated in your post that Ninja can get clutch captures if its pearls are continuously used to the greatest effect (paraphrasing your statement here) so at least you admit that you are making a huge assumption to back up your house of cards argument. Furthermore, your statement also indirectly assumes that all flagrooms would be Ninja friendly, or would have lots and lots of exits. How convenient for your talking points!

As I have already hinted at it does not make any logical sense to base an argument off of assumptions. That argument is simply wrong. If we were to base an argument for buffing Dwarf off of assumptions that Dwarf does not always get a lot of kills on defense, which is true, that does not make the argument valid because Dwarf does not need a buff to be a defensive powerhouse. Consequently, as someone who has played several years of Ninja (and I'm sure you have as well) I can attest to the fact that its mobility was not always effective against strong defenses especially those that have Dwarves, Pyros, Chemists, or really a lot of people in or around the flag-room. It is quite easy to die as Ninja in the flag-room with the slightest error because Ninja is a massively volatile class and flag poison, enemy damage, and pearl damage can make Ninja capping a nightmare on some maps. The point here is that you are blatantly stating that Ninja's enderpearls allow it to capture with the slightest of error, which is true about as often as the exact opposite is. To state that Ninja's high mobility is terrible for CTF gameplay because it can sometimes make blitz captures is an utterly ridiculous statement because that is like saying that Heavy (which is widely believed to be one of the most balanced classes) massively unbalances CTF gameplay because it can sometimes get huge kill-streaks. Sometimes being able to be very OP does not make the class or make its ability extremely OP or bad for the game.

The other primary I issue I take with your statement is that you imply that Ninja's only real advantage comparative to Chemist is that it has high mobility. What you ignore, and I cannot understand why, is the huge advantage of Ninja's invisibility. Invisibility is the only real shield that Ninja has against taking damage in most instances not because it blocks damage but it makes Ninja a much harder target to hit. Consequently, invisibility is one of the main aspects that allows Ninja to capture to begin with because it allows it to sneak into the flagroom and even have a chance to capture against a strong defense in the first place. Chemist does not have this advantage. Thus, in some ways invisibility is almost as important towards Ninja getting a capture (or a recovery) as its enderpearls are.

Additionally, I may not play in team matches like @Chactation but I feel that to compare Ninja gameplay in actual 30-40 person games to team matches, which tend to be half that size (as I understand it, not including special events which can be quite large) is very unfair. I have noticed that comparison being made in this thread and I wanted to point out how crazy it is. Henceforth, the reason for this is that flag defense tends to be better with more people on each team as there can be more players to spare for defense and as such Ninja capping can be quite a bit more challenging in normal games than in team matches where there may only be a couple people on defense. Furthermore, according to the official match rules (which I am sure you know about) posted by @Xelia_ Dwarf, one of the strongest defensive classes, is banned. Clearly, that would make Ninja capping a little bit easier in team matches than in regular games wouldn't it?

Why should the mobility of one class be classified as game-ruining simply because it is bad in some scenarios?

Again you make the assumption that Ninja was more of a force in the old CTF even when most of the other classes were quite a bit more powerful than they currently are.

See above.

Fascinating how you manage to argue that Ninja's capturing ability diminishes (not 'can' diminish, but 'diminishes') teamwork in CTF based on a whole bunch of assumptions and a huge exaggeration of Ninja's capturing ability. That said, the issue with your argument here is that you state that Ninja can arguably shift the entire momentum of a game with a few well timed pearls and defensive flaws but then come to the conclusion that this harms and diminishes teamwork. You are basing your argument off of a worst case scenario and that is ridiculous. I could argue that since Assassin could arguably shift the entire momentum of a game by taking out the entire defense (which I have seen happen a couple times in game) but to conclude that Assassin's ability to do so ruins teamwork in CTF - making it bad for the game - is wrong because normally Assassin doesn't get triple or quadra - kills.

In regular games your argument doesn't make any sense, because normally, in game with 30-50+ people its awfully difficult for Ninjas to shift the momentum of a game just like that. Defenses tend to be stronger and there are more enemies in the midfield so instances where Ninja's can get a couple quick captures in a few minutes don't tend to be particularly common occurrences. While Ninja captures are usually easier to do in smaller games or team matches (where defenses tend to be smaller and thus, weaker) most CTF games have at least 30 people in them since everyone tends to crowd into a single server most of the time, and this throws your argument a bit out of context.

Also disagree here. You have already stated that Enderpearls are one of the few things that make Ninja worthwhile to play aside from Chemist. In consequence, since you have failed to demonstrate that they 'ruin the game' aside from a few scenarios, limiting Ninja's enderpearl range is a bad idea without really nerfing the capabilities of the other classes (i.e. Chemist, Assassin, Pyro etc).

Lmao.

That's the only thing Ninja can do now? Capturing? That's funny because I've found it quite useful for offense and defense and I'm not a particularly great PvP'er or Ninja. On the other hand, capturing isn't actually that easy, especially in large games where the chance of failure is often as great as the chance of success.

I also find it really funny how you've basically stated that the only thing Ninja is good for comparatively to Chemist is capturing, and that isn't really true. Sure Ninja has more mobility than Chemist and that does give it an advantage there but it is stupidly difficult to defend against Chemists in flagrooms, even as a high level Dwarf, often harder than it is against Ninjas. As you have already stated, Chemist can take so much damage and not die because it has easily the largest health pool in the game. Combine that with Speed II, Strength II, and a ton of damage/poison potions in some ways, Chemist has the advantage over Ninja capturing-wise because it can pot-spam the hell out of a flagroom and steal the flag. Ninja, being far more volatile has to be much more careful about stealing the flag because it is in almost constant danger of dying, even at full health. However, Chemist is not.

Contrary to what you claim I do not think Ninja's enderpearls need to be restricted to a certain block limit or have its healthpool/armor changed. I did not state this above as I was countering your arguments but I would like to see enderpearls tweaked some so that Ninja does not have the great deal of mobility that it currently has, as that is definitely too extreme. For example, some of @Chactation's suggestions like adding a 5 second timer at the start of the game for enderpearls are pretty reasonable imo. Increasing Ninja's damage while slightly nerfing how often its pearls can be used is something I'd like to see happen with Ninja. Mind, I am not proposing that how far Ninja can teleport be limited but how often it can teleport, just for the sake of staying consistent with what I have previously said.

Nevertheless, what I see this post doing is trying to rework the wrong class, when the class that needs to be reworked the most at this time is Chemist, a.k.a. the Armored Ninja.

(and good lord I just spent 90 minutes on this post. I really need to get a life lol)

 

Maybe there should be something where every ten seconds of being invis, it shows your body for 2 seconds but you are invincible, you can only be hit by a bow or something. Other than that, if ninja capping bothers you so much, be a buffed heavy and stand at your flag waiting for a ninja to cap. They are very easy to kill, especially as a buffed heavy.

 

Ahem.

*y'all are weird*.

That is all.

 

Personally, I'd have it work the other way around. The invisibility won't start working until you have you've had your redstone out for 2 seconds. Ninja is an annoying class because while their combat is pretty weak, they can instantly turn invisible.

With an invisibility delay of 2 seconds, Ninjas can't just redstone to escape any Melee class. An invisibility blink after 10 seconds of already being invisible doesn't really accomplish much, besides occasionally screwing over the Ninja if an enemy happens to walk in front of them during that second of visibility. It doesn't really add anything in terms of gameplay but it will add a factor of randomness to the game.

That said, if Ninja does receive an invisibility nerf then the class should be given a stronger sword and more durability.

 

well i was asked to toss ppl on their necks so

Sorry zzy, but I have to disagree with your disagreement. I'll explain why:

quote: (im too lazy to do real quotes so deal with it)
"I was around in 2012, I played Ninja when everyone said it was good (or as @Chactation hilariously calls its 'golden age')
and as I have already stated, it was every bit as volatile back then as it was today."

Ninja was far better in 2012. That was back when you could pick the flag up instantly, increasing its capping power tremendously. Most players including myself weren't around long enough to truly take advantage of that, I was only beginning to comprehend the ridiculousness of what you could do with Ninja when the flag timer was introduced. Players like ItsDiegoDoes and bostonbruins1251 were the only ones who really understood the extent of its abusableness. This was also the time when pearling didn't remove spawn invincibility, and if you were quick you could be across the map in seconds with full HP. In addition, 414 was possible, allowing you to potentially kill players without even giving them a chance to hit you back. Perhaps these abilities were more abusable than you remember.

quote:
"Sometimes being able to be very OP does not make the class or make its ability extremely OP or bad for the game."

This is incredibly false. Case-in-point: Dwarf & Assassin. Dwarf is either very bad or absolutely unstoppable depending on the map and its level. This makes it broken and frustrating to play both as and against. Assassin either instakills its target or gets instakilled in return, making the class' mechanic inherently broken. Both are pretty bad for the game, Dwarf in particular. Ninja forces defenders to camp & watch the flag constantly in order to protect against it, this is very boring. If defenders didn't have to worry about that, they could do more fun things like roaming defence and guarding the entrances. And that's what the game is about at the end of the day: fun. You argue that there are many maps Ninja capping is weak on, but personally I struggle to think of more than perhaps one or two where ghost capping is not possible. I can also vouch for Ninja capping being "absurdly easy" as long as you are willing to die often. Dying is not an argument for balance where Ninja is concerned, as its claim to fame is the ability to return to its position moments later.

quote:
"Henceforth, the reason for this is that flag defense tends to be better with more people on each team as there can be more players to spare for defense and as such Ninja capping can be quite a bit more challenging in normal games than in team matches where there may only be a couple people on defense."

As someone who doesn't play in team matches, I think you misunderstand. It is harder to Ninja cap in team matches. This is because every defender is competent & coordinated, and if one teammate spots a Ninja, the entire team becomes aware of it. I also question your knowledge on the subject of Ninja capping, since you seem to think larger defences are harder to capture on when the opposite is true. The larger the defence, the more the defenders get in each other's way, and the more players you can hide behind to shield yourself from more dangerous ones. It's also easier to hide yourself in plain sight since the other team is less likely to notice one more among many than one more among few. In team matches, this is not possible. In addition, Ninja's recovery & defensive capabilities are nullified in team matches, where damage is easily shrugged off by medics and they are killed nearly instantly by a coordinated offence. In comparison, Ninja was once the most spammable class in existence. Having more than half of your team as Ninja was commonplace, as their more powerful swords, 414, and ability to return to battle in an instant with full health allowed them to overpower capturing squads with sheer numbers & damage. Picking up the flag instantly allowed a Ninja with good timing to easily carry his team by being teleported away with the flag before the other team can even react:

(You see them reacting because Ninja's invisibility was bugged and you could see their nametag & deal damage to them. If not for that, I would have been gone before they even knew what had happened. This was commonplace in old matches wherever bostonbruins1251 was concerned.)

I don't see much point arguing further since I think those arguments just about cover the rest of your post. I hope you can see learn from this post cuz I will probably not make another one. Cheers.

 

Excellent, ladies and gentlemen I do believe we have an argument. Great, I just needed something to relieve the daily tedium.

Sorry @Chactation I'll have to disagree with your disagreement of my disagreement.

You are correct that former Ninja could do quite a bit more than current Ninja. I'm not sure if you misinterpreted what I was saying but I stated that while old Ninja was much more powerful compared to current Ninja it wasn't much more of a force (in game) because classes like Pyro, Engineer, Necro, and Soldier were all stronger than they currently are. I had the pleasure of knowing bostonbruins for a while and I do know how good he was at Ninja, certainly a lot better than me. However, just because a few people could abuse the abilities of the class does not mean it was a powerhouse back in 2012/2013 since most people are not incredibly skilled at it.

Incredibly false? Fascinating.

My statement is not false at all because I did not apply it as a blanket statement. I was aware of the Dwarf and Assassin argument which is why I said "somctimes". Take Heavy for example, it is widely accepted to be one of the most balanced classes yet it can be incredibly OP if put into the hands of someone who is well practiced at PvP. That was what I was referring too and I apologize for not making my statement more clear.

You're completely right that at the end of the day this game is about fun. That's why I've been and always will be for removing instant kills entirely because sometimes they make the game fun for the few and not so great for the many. Anyway that's a whole other issue. Your statement that Ninja capping is absurdly easy as long as you are willing to die a lot is literally a oxymoron in and of itself. If that is your barometer for what is easy to do then I guess almost anything must be easy as long as there is one success at the end of a long list of failures.

Dying may not be an argument for balance but consistent failure certainly is.

As someone who fights on large defenses and plays a lot of Dwarf I can tell you that while that is sometimes the case it is generally true that it is harder to defend with smaller defenses. Why? Because there are simply less obstacles for the Ninja to have to get around, which usually makes it easier to capture. Sure people get in the way sometimes but the benefits of having 5-8 people in the flagroom tend to outweigh the drawbacks.

I do not think I misunderstand, I have played this game for 3.5 years and while my knowledge of team matches is certainly questionable (and I apologize for presuming a bit too much there) my knowledge of regular gameplay is not.

Good day to you sir and thanks for your response

@Tenshirox it is an exaggeration to say that any Ninja can capture off of a defense with the slightest defect just because a few Ninjas have done it.

 

As a trained ninja under the feet of Grand Master Brawl Bot, I can testify to ninja capping being a bit too easy sometimes. The biggest threat from my experience to ninja while capping is Pyro, but good pyros aren't very common. I would suggest a simple time limit between when you pick up the flag and when you can throw a pearl. 3 seconds SHOULD be enough for anyone on defense to wake up and attack. It's also enough time to get outside and throw a pearl back home. A cap and some sexy leather boots would be a nice addition to Ninja to encourage people to use ninja in more creative ways.

 

As an assassin main, I see this from another angle. For example, it's on daily basis for me (though I don't play regular servers anymore) that a Ninja tries to kill me from behind/appears out of nowhere and tried to kill me. Over the 2 years I've been playing Assassin I have developed the abbility (or maybe, we could call it a reflex) to snap and combo the Ninja.
What I've noticed?
It sometimes only takes me 3 hits to kill a Ninja. Meanwhile, it takes the same amount of hits to kill me, as an Assassin. Is that normal? Certainly not. Back on MCPVP a year ago, Ninja could kill an Assassin in 2 hits, usually dealing about 5-7 hearts of damage in the first hit, so even if the Assassin somehow managed to kill the Ninja, it was left with a few hearts, making it very vulnerable (especially if the Ninja was able to get back to the Assassin within seconds).
Now, the Ninja does only about 3 hearts in the first hit, and (considering that the Assassin combo' ed the Ninja and the Ninja didn't do any more damage) the Assassin is left almost untouched, being able to restore most of it's hearts by just instakilling some randy from behind.
And this is not just for Assassins. I can clearly remember Ninja being able to deal about 6-7 hearts in one hit to a Chemist, which is obviously not possible now.

What I'm trying to say is, Ninja's sword definitely needs buffing. Ninja in it's current is absolutely useless without his main weapon, and I agree with all the posts that have said this.

Enderpearls. I didn't actually think about them at all until I read this thread. I like the idea of not being able to use enderpearls for a certain amount of time (same principle could be applied for instakills - not being able to use them for a certain amount of time after respawn), however that's it. I think that with the current underpowerness of the sword, great mobility compensates (not fully, however) that. Maybe have a small cooldown after the Ninja threw a pearl, that could work.

So overall: Current Ninja needs reworking on almost every field except for eggs. Swords needs to be buffed, mobility made a bit smaller - however still have it bigger than other classes' (in the end, it's a Ninja).

If anyone has anything to say about this, feel free to reply. I will gladly change my opinion as long as the counterargument makes sense.

 

I agree that ninja should be a recovery class. I really hate it when i get distracted from the flag for .1 seconds and a ninja gets away with the flag. Ninjas only real problem when it gets out of flag is other ninjas and its health. I do agree with most of what tenshirox says, except for the chemist and dwarf thing. Chemist does have so many chances to live due to its regen and health pots, but everyone seems to forget that chemist has the biggest weakness in the classes. It can be pretty much 1-2 shot by archers in close range if the chemist isnt careful. I mean look at blackfurrykitty, shes the best chemist out there but still gets owned by archers, just not as much as regular chemists. Now to dwarves, dwarves are meant to be defense, and if people cant stop complaining when a dwarf is on defense, then do something about it. Dwarves are meant to be defense only classes and are rarely seen offensive. People hate dwarf because it can get above lvl 5 fast which means immune to pyro and chemist, but they are highly killable by an assassin or a good offense team. You seem to forget that dwarf got a nerf too, just not in the same way, its time to level got nerfed by 20 minutes. I used to be able to get to lvl 40 when there were 40 minute games. Now i can barely get to lvl 15 without a boatload of assassins coming at me or time running out.

Anyways, I agree with you tenshirox, ninja needs to get more into the recovery.

 

U need to argue with @BAWSS5 more. That would be a riveting read....

 

We see eye to eye on a lot of stuff tho.

Although I agree, I want to debate him frsrs sometime soon. 'dunno on what though.

 

My feelings on the class summed up in a small paragraph.

 

It seems that you @Tenshirox compare Chemist kinda like the NinjaEX, and that chemist can do whatever ninja can do, but with better results. As both the chemist and ninjur myself (especially now with sharp 6) I can argue well against that...

I would choose Chemist to either attempt a cap or to optimally create a distraction in the flagroom.
I would choose ninja to defend, to recover off of any running away flag carrier, or to mid-field roam/kill using its speed II to cover a lot of ground and its high DPS to get a swift kill or deal major damage on a target.

So basically chemist is the "tank ninja", while ninja is the real ninja that stealthily and quickly tracks down and kills, both with their equally circumstantial advantages and disadvantages.


EDIT: And I totally agree that ninja capping is cheap and ruins the game, but I believe it should just be further nerfed, not fully taken away.

This is a great idea... Something along those lines should make ninja nerfed only when actually (attempting) to cap the flag.

 

pyro sucks ;-;

 

I personally think Chemist is more of a premium Heavy than a tanky Ninja.

 

Yeah, again though, both with their circumstantial advantages and disadvantages.
I like chemist because it can use its short range to shield itself from pyros and assassins, but sometimes nothing is better than that good ol' buffed heavy. (;