A Nerfed CTF

Hm, I agree, I can't really talk that much when it comes to CTF and such but I can say some things for a fact. People want nerfs to make it fair, if you keep on nerfing it will be hard to kill each other, which will turn boring. It's good to stay in the middle, no extra buff to make it impossible to cap, but ROIGHT in the middle.

But mostly people like classes which are easier to kill people with, considering Steak PvP is like soup pvp and it takes forever to kill someone if they ACTUALLY know how to steak & do it efficiently (which is like 20% of CTF rip).

 

I feel like the main issue here is that removing the instakill in pyro led to the first nerf, which consequentially affected chemist and soldier, which then spreads to elf, ninja, etc.

There are plenty of ways that myself and others have suggested that allows the instakill to be removed while keeping pyro pretty powerful, so that the entire meta of the game doesn't shift drastically. The issue is that the instakill removal implemented was a direct nerf - there is no good compensation in other areas of the class for the lost ability, and therefore is a nerf in every aspect of the class. I've always thought removing the instakill should logically mean other areas of the class are buffed - as I've suggested on the update thread, increasing crowd control and suppressing heals and buffs is probably ideal to keep pyro as a good counter for the classes it's designed to counter. If done right, pyro's instakill can be removed and all other classes can stay the same with little impact on the game - perhaps other classes may have to do a little more on defence but that's probably a good thing.

But pyro gets a full on nerf, and other classes need to be nerfed as a result, leading to the vicious cycle you've explained in your post. Pyro's the source of all the other nerfs, and I feel like if we buff pyro adequately now, none of these nerfs would be necessary (or at least, more careful consideration can be put into them, as opposed to rolling them all out at once as a response to the previous nerf).

 

Its only natural for things to be nerfed off the bat at a much faster pace, it is easier to identify classes that are too powerful in comparison to classes that aren't powerful enough.

Pyro, Soldier, and Chemist were agreed to be core classes with balance issues that should be changed in unison to allow the least amount of Meta-shift. For the most part they were correct, as the nerfs made Pyro less of a staple on defense, made Soldier require more tact, and brought Chemist down to a reasonable level of power. What came next were obvious and minor changes that were easy to notice: Ninja being super powerful and Elf being a bit too good with its flight.

Ninja being strong and Elf being too flighty were obvious and easy to impliment nerfs, but figuring out what needs to be buffed with the new meta will take more time as less people complain about weak classes in comparison to powerful classes. The powerful are always brought down before the weak are brought up as nerfing strong classes indirectly buffs weak classes

 

I really feel like the only direct nerf that came as a result of these was Elf. Pyro needed to be reworked, and soldier needed a small change as a result (the soldier change really didn't do much to a good soldier). Chemist was OP as f0k as well and needed the change.

I don't see what your point is here. You say dat the pyro rework was a step forward but immediately condemn it for indirectly causing a train of nerfs. You can't rework classes without reworking the ones it affects. This "blind mans game" isn't really that bad. While I do agree that the Elf nerf was a bit much, it's still reversible. Another contradiction you have here is that you admit the Wind Element was OP, but then condemn the nerf. You can't work balance with double standards.

One of your other points was that nerfing a class can makes it less fun, and an over-nerfed class is not that fun, while OP classes are super fun. And then complain about balancing too much. Personally, I would much rather the staff try stuff out in game to see how it works out rather then sitting around doing nothing because they dun know how it would effect the game. In addition, not every nerfed class is less fun. Pyro currently is extremely fun, because frenzy adds a whole new dynamic to the class. That's how you rework classes. The Elf rework isn't necessarily final either. Nerfing the OP aspect and then later rebuffing is fine in my opinion.

Basically, I don't really see the point of this thread rather then to warn about a train of nerfs that had been long in coming. Nerfs are kind of needed, and just because one aspect of a class is nerfed doesn't mean the whole class will stay in that state forever.

 

How'd medic get nerfed? I haven't played in awhile

 

A genius.

They nerf things slowly and cause other classes to suffer or grow in power because of nerfs.

I've seen a lot of good games that focus on makeing it balanced from the start this causes the community to be balanced and they support anything to weak being stronger and anything to strong being weaker.

Since CTF started off unbalanced many people have adapted to love being OP and only sticking with one class

they make horrible choices people will support or ignore balance simply because they like the class not for a better game

Because of how the classes were made we have a horrible community that doesn't like switching classes for the sake of others people ignoreing medic to play a dif class for example

In another game I've currently been playing people are avoiding the OP items and waiting for a balance change (unless trolling)

Any instant kill that does not require skill must require high strategy simply running into someone after burning them was not only unbalanced but a annoyance to other classes.

 

I agree with most of your post. However, I don't mind this update, at least for now. While the game itself is in a kinda bad spot with ask these classes being nerfed, I think it's a step that Brawl is taking to evaluate classes that need reworks.

Let's take a look at Elf. Elf is an underpowered class that is being carried by a single overpowered ability (Wind Element). Brawl is nerfing the Wind Element first, because they want to see how players change based on the nerf. They'll then buff other aspects of the class accordingly to fit the new playstyles.

Basically, it's always darkest before the dawn. Brawl wants to observe how classes function at their very base, and then buff then off of that.

I know that their implementation in CTF has been pretty shoddy, and chances are they're going to be removed no matter what happens, but Instant Kills felt like a missed opportunity.

They really have the potential to add depth to the game and improve teamwork, but in their CTF state they were only used to complete objectives solo. Like Pyro solo defense, or Assassin solo recovery.

Instant Kills traditionally are meant to play a mind game. They restrict or impede certain options the enemy may take, usually with a factor of fear; maybe your don't want to cross this open area, as there's an Archer there, and your don't want to get sniped. Or maybe you need to watch your back to watch out for Assassins, which is taking your attention away from the rest of the game.

With Instant Kills, teams have to anticipate where Instant Killers may be, and set up accordingly to defend key players or objectives. With proper teamwork, Instant Kills should be less effective.

Unfortunately, this isn't really the case. Archer isn't so much an area denial/recovery class as much as it is a shoot Arrows and kill everything class. Assassins aren't really a distraction to cause enemies to divide their attention and resources as much as they are the one-man-recovery-team and guy who kills everyone unfortunate enough to not time their blocks perfectly.

If Instant Kills has been implemented more carefully from the start, we could've seen a diverse and interesting meta for CTF. Unfortunately, Instant Kills overstepped their boundaries and are now going to be gone because of that. Instant Kills in their current state are too good, but it'd be nice to see them in a context where they require more teamwork and skill to use and defend against. Plenty of games have implemented Instant Kills properly. CTF isn't one of them.

 

"But my issue with these updates is that they nerf the game too much. It seems like these updates are playing a game of blind man's bluff with the community by nerfing one thing after another in an attempt for balance."

When you nerf one thing, you buff others. A nerf to pyro can be seen as a buff to heavy, which might now have a chance to contend with it. Just because we directly nerfed one thing does not mean we are nerfing everything.

 

There are always gonna be unhappy people. Mainly because, they want to change the game to fit their playstyle, instead of the opposite.

I'm going to give my honest opinion. The idea that a certain class's ability is op has always sounded ridiculous to me. Here's an example:

A player runs into a flagroom only to find a pyro sitting in there (for the sake of the example, let's just say this is before the rework). He's instantly killed. Now, instead if trying a different approach, maybe getting some teammates (Ctfs literal description is team-based pvp) or switching classes to ninja, or I dunno, medic, this person comes right back and gets instantly killed. Oh, now he's mad. You'd think he'd try something else, but no. He just keeps beating away at a dead horse. Finally, he gets on the forums, and complains, probably on the wrong section of the forums, about how op pyro is, and it needs to be nerfed and all that same tired crap we keep hearing. For some of you, this guy is an idiot. He just wants to make the game easier for himself. Anyways, he starts gaining support. A massive amount of squids who have all had this "mind numbing problem" (yes, my voice is dripping with sarcasm) who are demanding that the class be nerfed. Eventually, it does. (I don't have a problem with the rework, now it's just a two hit kill instead of a one. Lets see how long before the pyro nerf is called "too op"). But why stop there? Why not nerf all the classes that are now "too op". When one class is nerfed, another class is op. It's just the way this works. It's a vicious cycle.

The only way to achieve true "balance" and "fair gameplay" is to have everyone use the same class. It's save to assume that everyone, including me, hates that idea. So what do people mean by balance? What they want. Everyone wants their favorite class to be the strongest. No matter how you try to deny it, this is built into human nature. We can't change it. Nom, for one day, only heavy, no other classes. Give the "community" its "balance", and see how long before everyone hates it. My bet is instantly.

I realize that most people are going to just skim through this, find something they don't like, then try to raze me via quote, and its obvious when its been done. For those of you who read this whole thing, give an honest opinion on reworks.

 

Seen the quote of Nom for the first time, I like it how he says reasonable players believe in a CTF without instakills

 

Well if ur taking instant kills away that is a lot of wonga

Agreed! I think having it un balanced actually makes it fun. Isn't that the point? I didn't buy minecraft so that servers are balanced and stuff. I bought it for fun.


So even if CTF was perfectly balanced it wouldn't be FUN. Unless some super intelligent alien comes and makes it perfect (extremely unlikely)

 

We don't necessarily need a perfectly balanced game, but what we do want is a team-based pvp flag capping experience, where every class is useful and no class stands out as being able to completely outclass everything else.

Look at a game like TF2. 9 classes with different abilities, team-based combat with objectives, lots of fun. Sounds pretty similar to CTF, eh? Anyway, in TF2, some classes are considered more powerful than others, especially in certain gamemodes or formats. The Demoman deals so much damage. The Scout is so good at Cleaning up enemies who are weak because they took so much damage from the Demoman. The Medic is amazing at keeping everyone alive, and the Soldier is super mobile. These classes are usually considered more mobile, more versatile, more powerful than other classes, but yet after almost 9 years thousands of people still play it. The thing is: Yes, some classes are more useful than others, but this actually meshes into the game very nicely. Demoman deals a ton of damage, but can't reliable hit fast targets since he only used projectiles. The team has to protect their Demoman and make sure he doesn't die, and they'll be rewarded with tons of damage.

CTF doesn't have as much of that factor. Some classes, like Pyro and Chemist, were so good at their job that they didn't necessarily need their team to really support them. A Medic helps them not die, but to be fair, a Medic paired with any class usually was pretty good.

We don't need balance to make each class exactly as good as every other; we need balance so people have to work together to play the objectives.

 

All this nagging will only lead to closing ctf tbh. I hate the update, yet I accept it. I don't like the reason why instakills are being removed, which is given by Chap -server owner for those who didn't know yet-. Chap has 4 minutes of playtime in ctf and he decided it had to be removed. Thank you Brawl!
I accept the update tho, with pain in my heart cuz you just ruined 1 and are going to ruin another 1 of my favorite classes.

 

So basically you want something like this?

 

One of my main problem with the nerfs is that most people agreed that both pyro and soldier needed to be nerfed, but back then, the pyro OPness was a reasonable counter to a soldier's wall spam. Now, pyro is definitely 10x less effective on defense and had it's main ability changed, whereas soldier only had a small limit placed on it's ability. We didn't change soldier at all, while making pyro useless to counter it. Not to mention, flagrooms like Blackout are hell to defend on without the pyro being able to counter the massive amounts of soldiers. (Personally I never had a problem with the old pyro, and they were very easy to distract and kill)

 

League of Legends? That explains where all your class balance ideas come from [emoji14] jk

I personally was a supporter of Instant Kills in some capacity (I agree that CTF Instant Kills were OP, but I feel like they could be valuable to the game if done right), but even then I don't mind this update much. CTF Pyro's method of getting Instant Kills was really ridiculously OP. If you look at TF2, where the Pyro class is clearly inspired from, you'll see that CTF Pyro's role was completely lost in translation, even though both the CTF and TF2 Pyro both had Flaming Instant or near Instant Kill Axes. In TF2, there was a slight weapon switch time so you couldn't just light enemies instantly and kill them. Also, you can't spam melee weapons like you can in Minecraft. CTF Pyro obviously had neither of these limiting factors which was part of why it was so OP.

With the update, the class still feels similar to the TF2 version but is unique in it's own way. It's a lot more fun to play, and a lot less annoying to fight. A win-win scenario in my opinion. And actually, TF2 Pyro didn't Instant Kill. It just did so much damage that 7/9 enemies would die in one hit, another one would probably burn to death in the next half-second, and even the Tankiest class would die in one more hit. Same thing pretty much [emoji14]

But yeah, good update imo, just as long as Brawl buffs some of the really weak classes in the near future so they're at useful. I'm not striving for perfection; that's impossible. I just want a game where anyone can do well as any class, and there's no one class that beats everything else by itself.