I hope you realize...

it actually does go down if you panic and quickly click your sword, which I'm sure lots of soldiers do every once in a while. It's about enough to climb the middle structure on blackout. Mods still want it to be a mobile class.

 

DON'T WORRY NO ONE WILL YELL AT U IN THE COMMENTS SECTION. WE ARE VERY A KIND AND FRIENDLY PEOPLE

HAVE A NICE DAYYY!

 

On a similar note, the Pyro nerf didn't really do much either after playing against and as it for a bit.

 

@wintergreen3 the issue I see with soldier now is that it has always been the class that introduced newbies to capping. The majority of people I talk to tell me they started off as soldier cappers long long ago. The update just killed parts of that, especially if people might not be perfectly using wall-climb to the point where it's as efficient as possible.

What is also ruined by the update is tricking ninjas. You could climb up somewhere, let the ninja pearl after you, fall down and climb to somewhere else. Not anymore so, now. I see the point in wanting to limit wallspam, but if the cost of that is this high, maybe it's not quite the right solution.

 

+1

 

Doesn't that just suggest that the class was powerful enough, abusable enough, and easy enough to learn so as to allow new players to achieve great success in capping (what is considered to be one of the hardest roles in the game as well as the central focus of the game, mind you) despite being utterly inexperienced in the game? That doesn't seem like such a great reason to justify its original state whatsoever.

That wasn't really tricking Ninjas, that was just forcing Ninjas to pearl after you and take more damage or to fall down and take more damage. In fact, the problem with the original Soldier was that upon encountering an obstacle in the form of an opposing player, the Soldier often escaped to places that the opposing player couldn't reach or would have to go to great lengths and/or damage to get to so as to deal minuscule crumbs of damage. Because of this, the Soldier was much too capable of capturing flags on its own. Most Soldier captures revolved around grabbing the flag alone (or with 1-2 people with them serving as distractions so as to soak up flag room attention and damage), escaping, meeting a Medic at the middle if needed (due to large damage possibly experienced in the flag room, not that often damage resulting from running back), and getting to your base to either capture the flag or camp somewhere with a Medic and multiple other players defending you until you can capture. Also, if this is such a large problem, either a Ninja nerf/rework is needed (which I would suggest, spawning immediately after dying only to pearl to the place you died to deal some more damage is beyond unreasonable and frustratingly annoying) or you need to find some more people to help you run back the flag.

If you ask me, I would tell you that the wall climb bar could have its natural regeneration slowed by 15-25% while the Soldier is carrying a flag (to reduce its ability to continually escape and evade as well as reduce the amount of vertical distance capable of being traveled), but only if the wall climb bar had a fraction regenerated each time the Soldier hit an opponent. This would benefit recoverers by giving them a greater chance to attack the Soldier while the Soldier attempts to regenerate his wall climb bar by fighting them back. This would also, in turn, benefit Soldiers most affected by this nerf by giving them an opportunity to regenerate their wall climb bar by doing something that risks their well being. Overall, this will make the recoverer's job more possible and will reward Soldiers for taking a risk and fighting back as opposed to constantly fleeing. Also, to reduce the severity of the wall climb bar nerf, reduce flag poison damage taken to 0.75-1 hearts.

 

@Iosif_Stalin (why can't you change your name back to what it used to be) imagine you're a soldier capper on blackout, go in, take some damage, get the flag, go out and can't wallclimb both onto the wall enclosing the flagroom as well as mid because ninjas hit you in between. Oppositely, it might fix the issue if soldiers just get back some of their XP when they're hit, because honestly, you go soldier capping not to hit your enemies but to escape them. If you want to pvp with the flag, you either change your name to @blackfurrykitty or you go buffed heavy.

Also, what I said about noob-friendly - I think you got me wrong. You want to introduce new players to the objective by giving them a chance to learn, a base from where they can branch out. Soldier is not ridiculous OP or abusable to a point where you're invincible, but can be very well countered by a good enough defense. Of course though, also with soldier skill is rewarded by some advantages. That's the same with ninja, pyro, archer and any other class.

The thing is, I don't want soldier to completely lose its point. It has been a class focused on capping and not on pvp. Has been a class to avoid mobs of players. Has been a class with mechanics easy enough to grasp for noobs. And all of this is not bad because seriously - a bad soldier was never a problem when I was on recovery, and I don't think it was a problem for any reg at all.

 

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion, could you maybe elaborate?

 

I played it. I'm still killing people really quickly unless they have really fast steaking, but 3.5 hearts per hit is enough to force someone to steak with fire damage and they won't be able to fight back much because they're too busy steaking. Even when fightijg against it, I find myself dying really quickly to a point where I stand little chance. The only thing that really got nerfed is Pyros ability to kill 2-3 people in <5 seconds.

You could say at that point just to avoid engaging or run away to water, but that was what things were like pre-nerf.

Frenzy Mode is literally instakill with burn damage factored in. It deals 7 hearts, correct? Make it 7.5 because of the fire damage and that's off one hit. You'd have to Steak back to 6.5 hearts (assuming the engagement happened at 10 hearts) because you don't want to die. Sucks, because you still die on the next hit. And unless Pyro players are incapable of hitting someone twice, this is still a garunteed 2shot kill, which is hardly much more of a chance than instakill.

It's not like Frenzy Mode is that hard to get. It doesn't really take that a good PvPer to cheese four hits out of something, especially since you don't need to have them on fire.

TLR: Deals way too much damage.

 

@Tysonyoshi have you played new pyro in a match?

 

To my knowledge, the new Pyro isn't in the match servers yet. So no.

If you're just talking about in a casual game, yes I have. I said it. Read.

 

Nah.

Good point, I hadn't taken into account the effect of damage taken from the flag room and people directly outside of the flag room in my original suggestion. I edited it to make up for this mistake. Here it is:

Do please give me your feedback on it as it has helped me thus far in correcting what I had previously thought.

I don't think I could say I agree this. If you regenerated a fraction of your wall climb bar each time someone hit you, you would have the wall climbing power of the original Soldier whenever someone is attempting to recover the flag from you. In addition, if you regenerated a fraction of your wall climb bar each time someone hit you, enemy Soldiers seeking to recover the flag from you will never be able to keep up with you because you will have more wall climbing power than them (giving you a great advantage in Soldier vs Soldier combat, most especially when hugging a wall). This defeats the purpose of the wall climb bar nerf, as the wall climb bar nerf was intended, I hope, to give recoverers a greater chance to deal damage to the Soldier flag carrier as well as removing wall hug Soldier battles (which it most certainly has).

Then why do people not get introduced to capping by playing Heavy or Archer? The answer is simple: They are not capping classes. Also, why don't people get introduced too often to capping by playing Medic, a class well-known for its capturing abilities? I'll tell you why, Heavy and Archer are not capping classes (which also means they are bad examples to bring up while making this point, but I felt that I just had to include them anyways since they are classes that new players have access to) and Medic is a class that is difficult to play and succeed with in the realm of capping. The original Soldier was both easy to learn and easy to play effectively (in terms of going in the flag room, grabbing the flag, and running back). Compare this to Medic or Chemist; both are classes that are difficult to learn and difficult to effectively play in the realm of capping. Also, I am aware of how easy Soldier is to learn and effectively play in capping because I have played a few Team Matches using Soldier to capture the flag. Conversely, I am also aware of just how much more difficult Medic is to learn and effectively play as in capping because, once again, I have used it to capture some flags in Team Matches.

Of course it is very well countered by a good enough defense. First off, defense classes are vastly more powerful in defending the flag room than capturing classes are in getting out of the flag room. Secondly, the Soldier nerf does not really affect Soldiers in the enemy flag room, but rather affect Soldiers running the flag back to their base and Soldiers attempting to wall hug. Third, Soldier was not well countered enough by the recovery classes, often only being defeated by the recovery classes when the Soldier has sustained a sizable amount of damage from the enemy flag room. Also, you really didn't need to mention skill since I believe everyone is aware that skill makes you better at what you play. The problem with skill is just how good it allows you to be and how fast/early it allows you to be so good (some classes are easier to become skilled at and are rewarded much more graciously at a certain level of skill as compared to other classes. A good example of this was the Old Pyro; it was easy to become skilled at and it rewarded you so very graciously for such a small amount of skill with the class).

Part of being a flag carrier is defending yourself from people seeking to kill you, not just running away and defending on your teammates to hold back your enemies. I believe that all capturing classes should be encouraged to fight back at least a bit. The amount that a Soldier would be needed to fight back should be minimum, because, as you stated, it is a class meant to escape and avoid enemies, however, it should not be allowed to completely ignore its enemies, but rather, be obliged to fight back when threatened and left no other choice.

My apologies for the lengthy and perhaps overbearing post.

 

The fact that you need 4 hits to activate frenzy to begin with makes any 1v1 a lot more difficult. A decent heavy will often get you down to only 1 steak before you can frenzy and kill them. Buffed heavy would probably kill pyro, which adds to the long list of classes that buffed heavy kills too easily.

Pyro was designed to counter a class exactly like heavy, and now heavy brings it down more than half its health pool. Let's also not forget that the frenzy bar doesn't even go up the correct amount when you're hitting someone multiple times very fast (though that's probably a bug).

 

@Tysonyoshi it is on match server two, and I have watched soldiers easily getting out of flagrooms with only one medic alongside them in a smaller match. Like, every time. If the soldier goes in, he will get out, that's what I saw.

Also @Iosif_Stalin I DUN WAN TO REED ALL OF DAT

Anyway, I did it.

I guess this is a more general problem; the question whether capping should be by default team-based or more a solo job. What you say is you want soldiers to fight back, to not be able to just focus on running. This is exactly what I imagine well-structured offense to be: one has the flag, one heals the flag carrier, others deal with recovery. The job of the flag carrier is only to survive. This is what works best in team matches because it is the safest way.

In normal matches however, I agree that soldiers should be more active. I don't think, though, that forcing soldiers to the ground is the best way to reach this. You know what sucks? I hit some button and now I don't have the chance to read what you said again .-.

 

Guess I'm just getting really unlucky with Frenzy, since they always seem to have it when they come around for me.. :/

Also gave it another play. I guess it's good enough now. But I still stand by Frenzy mode being way too powerful. I hardly find 4 hits to be that hard anyway.

Buffed Heavy is really dumb anyway. That's something I can agree with you on.

You still generally need a team to fight against a defense with Pyro. If it's just one Soldier vs one Pyro, it shouldn't really be mind-boggling that a Soldier should escape, and the situations still in the Pyro's favor even then. Medic is also pretty ridiculous anyway as of now, since they're still immune to Pyro, can stop a whole rush with one or two well placed webs, can tank for Soldier to a degree, and it's ridiculous heal. I'd be willing to bet that a Soldier with one Medic pair wouldn't be so powerful if Medic wasn't so good.

 

Than your knowledge is wrong, there have been matches played with the update.

 

Did you think I didn't believe the first person that told me like 2-3 posts above?

 

Didn't scroll, I just saw a msg that you were the last person leaving a comment, and thought that that was the last comment, I'm sorry \o/