Defensive Classes are the Most Hated

I think that carrots are sentient beings and should be treated as such

 

Eh I guess that there is a correlation between defense and hated classes. And my friend got called a noob for not wanting to capture lol that was funny.

Personally I hate soldier on offense, pretty much because the nerf didn't really do anything to nerf the wall spam :I Yea you can't constantly climb stuff, but you can still climb just about every single structure to completely avoid grounded recov classes. So then you need archer's help a lot of the times, but everyone seems to want that to be nerfed also even though it's one of the only classes that is very effective against soldiers and medic teams and basically helps keep the game from being a standoff the whole time, and it's just one big mess, isn't it :I

 

Ok so first off im gonna agree with @sp than offensive classes are harder then defensive. I remember an argument a while back saying they werent. But having played both alot offence IS harder. While def is easier and more hated heres why

1. Defence has larger population
First off look in a ctf match, usually u will find more of a team in their side rather than the opposing side. Since their are so many defensive players the margin for error can b higher due to the fact that if one defender doesent take an offender out, the others can.

2. Classes need rework
Most of the classes that ppl talk about needing reworks are used defensively (archer assassin dwarf necro heavy
ninja) lots of these classes can b used offensivley but usually are def. These classes have many abilities like assassinate and instakill that take little skill to do. Overall these classes have a lower skill curve do to their current state.

3. Less coordination and skill
In regular ctf matches defence is barely coordinated. A def is usually just any class that just stay around flag. It takes less skill to stay by ur flag sedentary than go get the other flag.

 

I'd say you're about right. There's a definite difference between recovery and defense though. @Synthetiqq made an excellent point: defense can involve any class, and is just standing there waiting for someone to kill. It's like camping with a purpose/reason to do so. Anybody can kill a soldier going into a flagroom, but not many people can effectively and consistently kill one after they've already gotten out, as pointed out by @BrandinoB . Recovery is alot harder, sometimes it's completely impossible. This is why there's been a massive out cry for nerfing dwarf, who has the most op sword, and doesn't have to go anywhere or do anything besides sit next to the flag and kill all thoughs brave enough to get close.

 

Okay so in my experiences, necro is so rare and so weak it is hardly hated, more laughed upon.
Being a capper main, and playing elf (weakest offensive armour) a lot, dwarves and engineers are just ugh. Dwarf doesn't need a rework, just needs to be completely removed imo. I think engineer could have a decent rework, until then I will continue to hate it.
The reason dwarf is so hated is simply because you can just sit there crouching and get an insane damage output, no skill involved. Not only that but if dwarves know how to block and the flagroom isn't headshottable, the only way to kill it is with elf or mage, but they both have extremely weak armour.
Engineer is hated because you can place a turret, fill the whole opposing side with your own players and camp by the cake. Not only that but the arrows make it difficult to get to the engineer without taking some damage, and then they can just run to their cake or wait for someone to come through the teleporter to help them.
Archer is hated simply because of the instakill ability. I think bad archers are hated more than good archers, because although good archers get more kills, they often play objectively and don't bowspam or spawnkill. Not only that but normally archers are avoidable, however on some maps, you pretty much can't go anywhere without being headshotted. For example, beaver creek. I personally think that the main problem isn't the archers, but the mass of archers on some maps.

So overall, I agree with you

 

Necro getting hate? pff, necro hasnt been worthy of a complaint of its strengths since mcpvp because it has no strengths left. Engineer and dwarves are called for definitely, but archers has gotten more popular in getting hated lately, probably because all the nerfs and crap. People who complain against archer fail to see the bigger picture here, if archer lost its instakill, what stops an enemy major offense from getting to flag room and taking it over? Exactly. Archer may be an "op" "annoying" hybrid(defense and offense) class, but its role in the game is one of the most important.

I feel like instead of nerfing every class and reworking it, i say we #buffit. Since making everything op has a great way of balancing other op classes. Think of it like this, dwarf is hard to kill because of nerfed assassins instakill that can be blocked. Now how about we make it so assassins instakill cant be blocked like the old days? That will make it able to kill any op class but still be able to be killed fairly easy. Give archer the ability to use lock on arrows by left clicking bow once to lock onto someone(flag carrier?). Give soldier fire resistance effect, no climbing limits, immune to flag poison again. Make medic able to spawn 2 healing stations to heal teams with instant heal 2/regen 2. Stuff like this can make the classes more op which can make balances easier due to op against an op.

 

You're going to hurt yourself if you keep stretching like that. If you wanna make a claim the least you can do is make sure it is applicable in all the conditions you outline.

• Archer isn't a defensive class (in teams it is usually given the label midfield).
• Necro isn't hated it's just considered useless now.
• Dwarf offense is not a problem unless paired with the offensive engineer, and even then it's only slightly more threatening
• Necro Offense is either praised for trying to cap or just as useless as defense necro.

I'm not 100% sure what your basing this on, but "calls to remove" does stand out for these few classes so let me explain as someone who also advocates for removal.

You weigh what that class has to offer vs how detrimental it is, and if a class is more detrimental than the value of what it offers then that class has no functional reason to stay in the game. Engineer, dwarf, and necro, have all been removed from team matches already, but how could this be possible if what determines a class's removal is so subjective? Simple, the thing that they offered was considered detrimental. you remove them and you just have a cleaner more fun game. this is why I think reworks aren't always the way to go. if the purpose that class serves is a bad one then reworking it while still allowing it to fulfill that detrimental purpose accomplishes nothing. if you rework it to fit some other role then it's just a new class, and there is no purpose in calling it a rework.
like Brandino stated:

This is the reason archer cannot be removed from the game. I still think archer should be removed. imo it fulfills a detrimental purpose of having the ability to kill anything it can see without any type of engagement from the other player, but I also think soldier and medic need to be reworked... so yeah, it's a big mess.

 

Mage is definitely a defensive class and is definitely not hated.

 

I agree with everything you say except the archery part. Archer is not detrimental(note that i dont know what it means, but i think it means useless). Its abilitys in game is many things: offense, defense, long range recovery support, defense support, offense support, midfield control.

Just because you get sniped by archers all the time doesnt mean it should be removed, 6 things you can do to counter/avoid archers: elf, mage, archer, ninja, pvp, and dodging. If you keep getting sniped by an archer, evaluate what you are doing and how you can fix it, if you keep doing the same thing of course youll get sniped. I dont get sniped by archers a ton because I know how to avoid them most of the time, you dont go in a straight line, and you dont stay in the open.

I know the people who cap complain more about archer because they get sniped when they get the flag and out the flag room. Now what do you exactly expect? The archers to just ignore you and let you cap?

Sniping someone is not as easy as you think, if you miss once(which is really easy to do), theyll know you are sniping at them and instantly go into dodge the arrow mode. 3 variables to each archer snipe: position of target, angle to hit said target, and the power needed to reach said target and not overshoot/undershoot.

I will defend archer to my last breathe.

 

100% yes. Also, this is unrelated, but I hate it when someone tells an archer to learn to pvp, even though archery is pvp. (Player vs Player, it does not mean sword vs sword) they should be saying learn to melee. This is besides the main point, I agree with you completely.

 

I get tired of it as well.

 

Detrimental means takes something away, or bad. It doesn't mean useless, although something useless could be detrimental.

Let's go over yur 6 things.
1. Elf: really the only true counter, if you see the archer, you can shield, but usually you don't and get f0ked anyway.
2. Mage: Only applied in the mages range, outside of that you can't really do much.
3. Archer: Mirror matchups, this is an actual counter.
4. Ninja: Okay, so not as much of a counter as people think. It really only works if the ninja gets a crap ton of hits in. Archer has full chain, making is pretty darn tanky, and when combined with its 4 steaks, usually enough to take down a ninja in 2-3 steaks.
5. PvP: Not sure wtf you mean by this, but if it's melee pvp, then that is definetly not a counter. In fact, archer completely circumvents any melee pvp skill whatsoever. Punch II means you can't always get anywhere near the archer, and archer will completely dominate you at any distance away.
6. Dodging: Not a fawkin counter. This is completely situational, and often doesn't even apply. If you see the archer, and try to dodge, you won't be looking around you. It's basically impossible to willfully dodge an arrow if you're distracted by other people (ex, all cappers). People just move around in random patterns and hope that the arrow doesn't hit. This isn't dodging, this is luck. In addition, if an archer gets you with one arrow, what were you supposed to do? Somehow sense the arrow coming and move? You can't dodge something you don't see coming.

I actually don't cap, I recover. And archer is annoying as f0k. Walking down midfield? Headshot. Leaving spawn? Headshot. Creeping into the enemy flagroom? Headshot. Pearling? Headshot.
Also, I actually expect archer to have some counter-play, not move around and hope they miss.

Actually, sniping someone is super-easy.
Step 1: Go to midfield, where lots of people are
Step 2: Spam arrows in the general direction of people.
Step 3: Get kills

You could be the worst archer, and by spamming arrows you would still eventually kill someone. Now, for trying to kill a certain person it is a bit harder, you're right. But it's still not super difficult, and even then, whats the penalty for missing? There is none. If you mess up in a melee fight, you get punished by your health getting rekt. But for archer, the only punishment is losing an arrow, and some time. Also, people don't always see an arrow. It's a tiny little thing, easy to miss. The archer can continue unloading on you, and even if you do see it, many capping situations mean you can't do crap about it, and can just hope the archer misses.

 

as im too tired from a 11 day vacation to reply to the entire thing, ill just reply to the bold.

What the actual crap do you expect to happen? Archer is meant to be anti-infantry and they especially go after ninjas, due to how broken it is.

I am also so sick and tired of people saying the exact same crap. Archers that play the game OBJECTIVELY(objectively as in the point of the game and dont kill***** actually are good. The pros know how to avoid most archers, they dont go the same way. Only way you get spam kills at spawn is getting noobs in all honesty. Only people who spam arrows in mid are noobs, pro archers wait, and time perfectly then fire.

Archer is an anti-recovery and anti-infantry class, it does its job. Archers make the enemy team require some actual smarts to get past.

I would go into more description if i wasnt extremely tired. I'll get more into it another time.

 

I don't see how archers playing objectively being good has anything to do with my post. Of course some archers are better then others. So what? That doesn't say anything about the class being balanced.

Actually archer is anti-everythingpast30blocks. It does do its job, and it does it way too well. And no, it does not require "smarts" to get past an archer. It requires luck, or the convenience of the map being designed to have paths that an archer can't get you.

Also, if yur hearing the same "crap" about archer, maybe it's time to start listening to it, and stop responding with the same argument.

 

the same argument is the reason it shouldnt and probably wont get nerfed. Lets face it, if archers nerfed the amount of hordes thatll be in the open flag rooms/areas is way too high, engineer campers will basically be unstoppable, same with chemist medic teams, etc.

Archers 30 block instakill is the only thing it has going for it and it is not as easy to use as assassin, dwarf, or engineer, and nowhere near gamebreaking.

I see it as skill and smarts because i can dodge 5 archers shooting at me FROM BEHIND by using the terrain and predicting where they will fire, worst thing i worry about when it comes to archers is someone hitting me into an arrow, but thats it. Archers really easy to outsmart because they cant rapid fire like mage or engineer at long range, they gotta time an arrow and angle it perfectly to hit.

its really the maps that are at fault for making archer more op then it is *cough* ship battle, castles, halo, blackout, beaver creek and dragons valley *cough*.

Archer does its job, sometimes too well, but yeh know what, this game is suppose to be challenging, archer makes it a challenge to recover, cap, etc. You remove every single thing that is challenging and you end up with a boring game. (dwarf and engineer are an exception to this because they dont have to do crap, archers not as annoying, gamebreaking, etc).

 

I've seen every class hated on before

Soldier: Wall-Climbing noob, often said to be cowarding out of fights
Archer: Obviously them head shots
Medic: Medic
Heavy: They just chase you down and don't stop swinging
Pyro: (Old) Instant Noob with no PVP Skills/(New) You NEED frenzy to get kills
Engineer: Frustration because of that turret
Ninja: Surprise you w/ Invis, then kill you in a couple of hits (certain classes)
Assassin: Same as old Pyro
Mage: Spell Spam
Chemist: Potspam
Necro: Being hard to kill, letting zombies do the work
Dwarf: Way too powerful pls Assassinate
Elf: Reflecting all my projectiles

Overall, I do think defensive classes do get more hate, but then again everything gets hate

 

You sir get a like.

My description of the classes

Soldier: annoying to kill enemy and once it gets to a medic really only pyro/assassin/archer can kill him/her. Does its job though

Archer: it didnt have that many complaints in the past as it does now, but its basically a 30 block assassin as people like to call it.

Medic: extremely annoying to kill and abuseable with 3 medics on one flag carrier or medic teaming with 4 medics and medic teaming with a chemist.
Heavy: second tankiest class but the most persistent class for randies, @Lord_Byzantine makes heavy severely op.

Pyro: the instakiller of the past that had to use bow and flint to ignite people. People were upset cause you had to use medics to get past them most of the time. Now my complaints about frenzy is that frenzy makes pyros bow and flint useless, just get 4 hits, frenzy, 1-2 shot enemies that were 5 blocks around you in 5 seconds, wait 5 seconds, hit 4 times again, repeat.

Engineer: most frustrating class imo because it can ship 20 people to the enemy side in less then a minute and its turret is hard to destroy without an axe/pickaxe if the engineer knows how to heal it, plus fking cake.

Ninja: 414 and instacapping in the past, now ghost capping and slower 414, plus invis, eggs, and enderpearls.

Assassin: main complaint here is that assassin takes no skill because it can one shot and its only real counter is ping based.

Mage: yea basically just for the people who spell spam. Good mages like myself, scarryperry, chikincows, and doggies actually use all of our spells wisely. Expert mages of the past: general405 and aefrogdog as well.

Chemist: i hate this class due to the extreme difficulty to kill once if it is teaming with medic(s), a giant health pool, good armor, and loads of pots, legitimately its main weakness is archer.

Necro: back in the old old days necro was actually a good class and op due to its capabilities with its spawner, but now the only complaint is that its as good as my social life. Necros rarely used anymore and extremely hard to get 1 kill with the mobs.

Dwarf: too good at defense and smart dwarfs know how to block against assassins. Definitely agree with its complaints, but the dwarf popularness grew due to ghost cappers. Remember that everryone.

Elf: before the nerf the complaints was that its air arrows were too good and it can get away very easy. Now the main complaint is that its air arrows suck and need to be buffed(Hypocrites). Theres also some complaints about earth element being annoying.

Fashionista: this class causes the server to lag and is just annoying, it was mcpvps april fools joke that sadly lasted.