Soldier Counter?

Exactly. imo, either give soldier (and archer... e.e) a tad bit weaker armor or just buff ninja's sword....
idk why no edits/changes/adjustments ever get done in ctf to balance the game out, we're lucky if something changes in 5 months

 

I don't agree with removing instakills but to be fair Chap is big on ctf, he's even had a bunch of maps in rotation.

 

soldier doesn't need an extra counter, it needs a nerf. make them have to earn their wallclimb instead of being supplied it at a more-than-convenient rate.

 

If we remove instakills, we will have to completely redesign most, if not all, classes.

 

*cough archer cough*

 

just because u put maps in2 rotation doesnt mean ur "big on ctf", just sayin...beaver creek is a piece of **** if u ask me but hey what do i know

 

being big in ctf doesnt mean that you are well known or popular, it means you have a say in what happens with the gamemode

 

i didnt mean it in popularity - that dude kfact or whatever the **** made maps but literally plays the game once a year and his team died in 0.2 seconds

 

Exactly the example i needed. He is the owner of the server but rarely if ever plays on the most popular gamemode imo.

Building ctf maps is absolutely worthless if you dont know how good/bad classes would be on that specific map. Beaver creek is soldier, ninja, and archer op.

That goes for nerfing classes as well, many of the nerfs only care about the class thats getting nerf. Not many nerfs or none at all have though about how it effects offense, defense, recovery, and support. They dont think about how that would buff other classes.

Archer being nerfed would be the final nail in brawls ctf coffin.

 

1. Chemist is the most op capping class, that much tankiness beats heavy's. Only part where soldier definitely beats chemist (kind of) is escaping the flagroom.
2. the nerf decently nerfs it. It was meant to wall climb, but has prevented you to wallspam, something most soldiers do when they panic. By all means if you think the nerf didn't do much you might as well revert it and see once more how horrifying it was without the nerf.
3. No one plays elf, and if they do they only use 2 elements, and let's be real the earth arrow ability is a joke just to satisfy the pleas of people wanting a class that counters soldiers escapability
4. Archer is your counter to soldier. it really isn't hard to headshot one. If they're in a non headshottable area, then just go pyro or ninja (practically 99.9% of non ehadshottable areas are enclosed spaces that are difficult to get out of

 

Chemists tankiness still beats dwarves tankiness, chemist does as much damage as ninja with strength and sword alone, with pots it definitely can do more damage then a dwarf over time. Chemist also has above average armor and is still able to heal spam extremely quick even with the mana nerf. Chemist is so easy to use if you know how to hotkey, I suck at hotkeying, so i suck at chemist. Even without hotkeying chemist can still do a crap ton of damage.

 

@Doubtfully @TheMaelstromsEye
Chemist has pretty weak armor and can only toss 3 health pots. Once you run out of mana, it's pretty easy for a high-damage defense to kill you (of course I'm talking about chemist capping here) unless you're quite good at conserving mana and timing health pots.

Keep in mind, when there are several defenders on you, your only hope of escape is to use at least one or two damage (aka knockback) potions, which also use significant mana. Before the nerf, I'd only chemist capped a few times, and seven out of eight of my steals were captures. Now, I kind of suck at chemist capping.

Also, unless you do well to conserve your mana, heavy is much tankier than chemist most of the time. That's why I tend to heavy cap instead of chemist cap. The only real advantage is fire resistance, but let's face it, half of the time that a pyro gets more than one hit on you, you're screwed.

(@TheMaelstromsEye I hotkey for every class, and I still suck at chemist.)

 

You make it sound like it's every easy to run out of mana as chemist lol
I play chemist, especially offense and it doesn't take any mana really to be able to throw a health pot. For all I know you can throw all 5 health pots at once, the only part where mana is nerfed is dmg pots to prevent them being spammed.

Heavy may be tankier than chemist in terms of armor but in reality a chemist has everything it takes to kill a heavy. Damage pots, slow pots(if you don't use this to fight them maybe that's why you're finding it difficult) and poison pots. You have 5 regen pots at your disposal, it's difficult to not be able to use them.

How is fire resistance an advantage vs a heavy?? It is quite evident that you do not have enough experience with chemist to comment on it's strength and usage. The only real trouble I have with chemist sometimes is mostly ninjas because they use eggs to slow down and have twice the speed I do.

 

uhm... lol do u even have experience with chemist? I just want to clarify a few points, being quite the chemist player myself, being very knowledgeable/experienced with the classes, and being very good at pvp...

Well, heavy is actually a much tankier class than chemist. An equally skilled heavy w/o buffs can somewhat easily beat me in a 1v1 @Byz @Trenny because they can just straightline dealing high damage. As the chemist, I then try to knock them back with either my sword or damage pot, but especially if they have good ping, w-tap, and/or blockhit, they'll hardly take knockback. So I end up also healing the heavy and because I can't get him off me, I'll die almost without a fight. And when I can put up a fight, I struggle to continually health pot myself (and unfortunately also the heavy...) and I struggle to deal knockback and damage of my own with damage pots and sword swings, all until I run out of health pots/mana. The only other option for me is to break off and run away from the fight, "pot-spam", and to not engage in sword combat. With the "pot-spam", the heavy may lose a bit of steak but would dodge and quickly back off from the pot splashes. Unless he decides to be rash and blood-lustful and charges into heavy "pot-spam" then there's really no way to kill him. Or, bit by bit I can draw the heavy towards me and throw pots until I wear him down enough to finish him off with a few sword swings – but this doesn't happen b/c he (the heavy) is smart.
Byz and trenny are just the examples I chose, because they have about the same ping and skill level as myself.
But now, if we're talking about buffed heavy, that just blows away all competition... honestly just try buffed heavy for yourself...
So @Doubtfully you're probably just facing less skilled players as a chemist, never faced (heavy)Byz/Trenny as a chemist, and/or never tried going heavy/buffed heavy against a chemist of equal or less skill.

I would say the only advantage of being chemist is that I'm guaranteed to be buffed (with lovely strength and speed). Other classes have to ask for buffs. But if you can be buffed by another player, imo there's no reason to go chemist. Personally, I don't like to be a bother and constantly beg for buffs at spawn, and I've grown to love the challenge and potential power of chemist, so I play chemist.
Also, the only other advantage is your poison pot, which can easily help kill enemy assassins.

And idk where "chemist is the most op capping class" came from. I would prefer if a chemist where to be on offense if I were a defender because it stays on the ground and is quite squishy for a defending ninja or any buffed defending sword. Soldier capping definitely out plays it because of its incredible maneuverability if it can escape out of the flagroom. Also, soldier and chemist have the same chance/skill/potential of escaping out of a flagroom (especially if the soldier is buffed, which it honestly just should be). Their mildly low armor are easy targets for defending pyros/ninjas/buffed classes. Chemist, on the other hand, if escapes out of the flagroom, has to bear down through a hell of high damage ninjas/whatever is waiting on the other side until it caps the flag (all it takes is a 3-combo from one good recov ninja to be killed... add in another good recov ninja and half the chemist's chances of survival with a 1.5-combo needed to be killed) and an archer doesn't need to factor in a "vertical strafe" because a chemist just stays on the ground, while a soldier can easily "fly" away from harm's way.

(and yis i mention soldier once or twice so it's not entirely off topic xP)

 

So humble.

Okay but back on topic, soldier needs a rework/nerf, not a counter class. If you were to make an entire new class, this would just be a band aid class as many people have said. It might work if you make a certain class do a lot of extra damage to soldier (like how archer does to chemist), but it should be for a class that doesn't get much attention (maybe elf).

And maybe a way to do this would make soldier regenerate mana naturally at a slow rate, but when shifting, they gain more? (got this idea from quick fix it thread, but I don't remember who said it). I don't know, but that'd make sense.

 

I agree with everything you said. xP
Soldier vs. soldier is a thing too, but it should still be able to be countered by other classes...
Maybe make ninja do extra damage to anything in the air and/or if attacking the back side of a target? or just buff the ninja's sword...
Elf is already a bandaid nerf against soldier with its earth spell, so with the new elf armor and arrow buff, hopefully the class can be a more viable counter to soldier.
Archer, as already said, is a huge counter to soldier if not one of the only viable classes (besides pyro, but pyro is generally less successful) to be able to recov off of a soldier. But then again, archer is a huge counter to every single class (with a small exception to elf)...

So, with a damage boost for ninja, honestly imo that's all that's needed, because ninja is one of the only other classes with decent maneuverability (but it gets killed way to easily for having to pearl way to many times to manage just a few hits on a runaway soldier).

 

I hope you didn't think I was being prejudice with chemist without having any experience with it. Of course I have experience with chemist, I've played it for over a year now and if I daresay I am decent at it(not going to say good because I am not the type to brag).

Since you decided to bring up buffed heavy I might as well continue debating that with you (grant it, I was half awake and seemingly forgot that buffed heavy existed, but in most cases you really don't find a buffed heavy every time you capture the flag).

Byz and Trenny are two exceptionally good players. Not every single player matches their pvp level (excluding a few but I do not wish to tag them just because it's unnecessary).

It's quite easy to take out or if anything fight a buffed heavy actually. If you are so much of the chemist player yourself, you would know that throwing a slowness and poison pot at them is more than enough to just begin comboing them (Just saying as well, ping is less as relevant of a matter as using something like d/w/s/a tap). Also, "potspam" is quite a debatable subject. If you throw at least 4-5 pots simultaneously whilst fighting someone, you may do so and call it at that.

I really wouldn't call myself the same skill as Byz or Trenny if you also say that they can easily kill you, it's just contradicting yourself completely. If you are at the same skill level as them, surely it can't be that difficult to fight them? I personally never had that much trouble fighting a buffed heavy as I can manage to knock them back and slow them to strafe them (straightlining is old fashioned and pointless in ctf).

I think the one thing that benefits chemist over practically all the other classes except perhaps medic is survivability. I personally always liked the instant health pots and regen pots that came along with the class. Keep in mind that each regen pot restores 7-8 hearts (or along that line, I am note 100% sure but its above 5 hearts for sure).In case you are being chased, you have poison and slowness pots and to make sure there are no invis ninjas around you just need to throw a poison pot. There are plenty of reasons why chemist is a good class apart from buffs (and yet you say you are quite the chemist player yourself).

I think we can round up why chemist is the most op capping class with a few points
- Overloaded with health pots and regen pots (if you had hearts instead of pots you'd have 50 hearts, not to mention 5 regen pots)
- Decently mobile and as strong as a ninja
- Great for escaping from the flagroom once you've actually gone out, since you have a bunch of debuff potions at your dispoasl
- As I stated before, it's survivability is only rivaled by soldier and medic (practically the only thing soldier rivals chemist with)

Soldier does not have as much self sustain as chemist does. Soldier can dodge archers arrows yes, but so can chemist. In the end if the archer is good it won't miss either or.

I never said soldier was a garbage class, but to think it being better than chemist just because it has wall climbing and better armor is a very silly thing. That being said, I still enjoy playing both classes as equally except I tend to play chemist more, and I'm not being biased about it because I am a ninja main or whatsoever. ( I'm not a ninja main)

Enough off topic now, I stated my reasons for soldier, if you want to debate this further PM me or make an entirely different thread about it

 

I'd like to make it clear that my post above was entirely about capping, including the parts about tossing pots to survive a defense and comparing chemist to heavy; your post I've quoted is almost entirely about PvP with chemist. I'm also not quite as much of an idiot as to think that fire resistance gives an advantage in a heavy vs chemist fight; I don't mean this in an aggressive way, and I did see that you mentioned you were half awake when you posted that.

As for your last post, just a couple things. First, I don't want to put words in @scapecrafter's mouth, but I believe he meant that Byz and Trenny were equal skill to himself, yet they could only kill him so easily because of the class difference. Second: I wouldn't say comparing soldier and chemist is off-topic from the thread; the topic is about soldier counters, after all.

 

My proposal for a soldier nerf: When a soldier steals the flag, have its wall climb mana drastically slow down (every tick of xp would take "x" amount of time). In order to gain mana at a faster rate, the soldier would have to physically hit someone. For every hit, the player would gain "x" amount mana. Perhaps depending on who you hit, for example: a pyro vs a heavy, you gain a lot more xp since it can counter the soldier much more than the other class and it would be unfair for the soldier to gain equal amount if mana from every class. I have no clue if someone has mentioned this here or not, but I just wanted to add a suggestion to this topic.

 

I've always personally been weary to totally rework soldier. As much as I still miss my instant kill on defense, it's not like frenzy isn't fun to use, it's just not as useful as it used to be. For soldier, purly based on personal opinion, I'd try changing something other than the wall-climb first to see what that did. Even as a pyro defender, with soldiers being mostly the worst to deal with, especially with the change, I've always thought the wall climb ability was really fun and unique. The main reason was its smoothness.

With the mana change, though it doesn't "do anything" it doesn't make their ability not fun to use. I feel like limiting it too much, making it not as useful or anything too drastic would make soldier not as fun to play. Recovering off a soldier is such a great feeling because of how ridiculously difficult it is sometimes - so I get the whole flying away deal. However, most classes run, just on the ground. So there's other ways to change soldier without killing its ability like, horizontal mobility, armor change as people mentioned, reduced fall damage (wouldn't actually cause damage, like the animation, but having no fall damage would cost some health). There's actually a lot to play so, I think when it's time, it would be interesting to try out other things first than straight up nerfing the wall climb.

If eventually it has to come to that, than fine - but why not try other options first?