CTF Class Tweaks

Didnt deny that you were being dense, good job.

You do realize thats why brawls dying atm. The only thing keeping brawls rowboat afloat is its credit booster and it really isnt worth it because the stuff credits can buy are so expensive. New players are immediately turned off by ctf classes requiring 30k credits EACH. The staff do things 99% of the time without our say so, most notably the elf nerf that made air arrows take 2 arrows, medics sword being nerfed of its sharpness when all the complaints against medic have been about its major support ability and health pool. Quarrelt is the only reason we got a tiny update at all. Shes one of the few staff members that actually cares about the server in survival, not just fun, etc. The only time nom does things is when either hes practically begged to or when its a gamebreaking glitch because he knows he has to or people will leave. Brawls staff will do as they please when they please, and sadly i think im one of few players who actually sees that.

Every class can be extremely abused and become annoying af, 6 medics can become unkillable, 6 heavies unkillable, 5 assassins unblockable unless all are poisoned, etc. Archer is just the target of most hate because many do nothing to avoid them, i have only seen few actually use underground passages or use trees to hide instead of going on mountains, or in open areas where they can be sniped. Archer doesnt give me any problems because I know how to avoid them.

The main issues of ctf right now are at its core, capturing the flag: soldiers, medics, chemists, engineers, and dwarves are all far better then archer because they are actually op in the core scenario of ctf, archers rarely if ever cap. Archers only effect the outside areas, and open areas. Archers are always in the open and shoot for stuff in the open.

I would rather have you use the term descriptive since explicit usually talks about other stuff. You seem to think i dont understand that instakill is being removed and havent gotten used to the idea. Ive gotten used to ghost capping and chemist medic teams, i still complain about them.

Like i said, brawl is already dying(many people only come on ctf for matches, and thats it). The lack of care is amazing by the staff that can actually do something. Archers instakill backfiring is a 99% probability because archers instakill keeps things in check, one class would become the king of ctf once more and we all know what it is, @Lati0s_ would love it. You cannot deny that archers instakill keeps sh*t from hitting the fan with at least engineer. I am opened minded enough to see the alternatives, its just there isnt any.

Oh I'm sure you have something referencing yourself in there, maybe it was implied or it was intentional. You are one of the few people who can give me a run for the money when it comes to ego chaos. You are expressing your thoughts, your opinions right now chaos. That is the whole part of an argument/discussion. I will continue to complain against crap that shouldnt exist(inb4 an insult at myself) or shouldnt have to happen(again inb4 an insult at myself). You talk about saying you think of new players to veterans yet you talk about yourself, interesting. I only agree with you that there should be a solution to stuff, but some stuff shouldnt have a solution, just people should become smarter, this is a game that actually requires thinking put into it.. The pro cappers go in the flag with a plan(i remember blackkitty or whatever his/her name is talk about going into a flag room with a plan.). Archer is not a major threat to people who use their head and stop doing the same thing.

Want to continue this discussion chaos.

 

Absolutely

2 reasons mainly. First I didn't think it was actually relevant to the topic at hand, and given your usual ability to insult somethone that comes up with an argument you can't understand, I thought it best not to intervene. Secondly because being dense, stupid is completely subjective. What are we comparing that to? Are we comparing that to Einstein? You didn't really state anything, and given it's not relevant anyway I wasn't willing to make a remark on it other than: actually read what I'm saying and then make a judgement, maybe you'll think different. I'm sure someone will

No, I'm pretty sure just about every CTF player on these forums can see what's going on. I wasn't just writing what I did for your benefit, I was also writing it to try and tell the staff that you have to actually listen to the community if you want brawl to survive. What's going on now, is exactly the opposite. I've mentioned several times on these forums before (which you've probably ignored so I'll explain again) that the CTF server ideas section is bigger than a few of brawls smaller gamemodes. Despite that, the ideas and updates the staff put forward don't actually seem to be refering anyone other than Quarrelt. Whilst I'm sure that she has some good ideas, and that she has the community at heart when she comes up with this stuff, she is not the fountain of knowledge. There are other equally bright people out there on that server section who come up with good ideas. Everyone is clearly unhappy about the situation as it is, and unless those bright people are listened to, people will just leave and the gamemode will close. I explained the reason why in my last post. I think you're right in saying the staff right now are listening to who they please, but if they want CTF to survive, the reality is they've got no choice but to change that in the future.

Yes, but as I said in the quote you're responding to, I was talking about individual class abilities. That means I was just talking about 1 player playing it at a time (unless I specifically mentioned that in a sentence, in which case I doubt it went any further than that sentence). Of course, there are definitely complications when you team, and that's called teamwork. Yes some teamwork strategies, like 6 medics healing each other can be considered extremely annoying. In fact I've said before that if instakills are going I think instaheals should go at the same time, in order to make sure medics aren't ridiculous. Archer gets most of the hate because it's core mechanic, a 1 hit effect that will kill you simply as long as it hits you can and is considered OP by the vast majority of people. People do try to avoid it by using those tunnels, but unfortunately those tunnels don't go from flag to flag, and so archers can literally camp places where the flag bearer will come out into the open and kill them there. If they don't want to play objectively they can literally spawnkill and in that situation there's little to no cover or safety for the people, and so archer is still shown to be annoying. I think it might also have a little to do with it being a free class, and so people see more archers, get headshot more and get more annoyed because of it, but that doesn't change the fundamental mechanic being unfair. I definitely argue a single shot without any chance to save yourself before you die is 100% unfair, irrespective of how good the player is at hitting that target.

I'm not saying that there aren't more important to fix than archers headshot right now, I'm saying it should be on the list. Necro is a joke, engineer is still reviled by the majority of the community, dwarves are still annoying. I would argue that those 3 things in particular should be worked on sooner, or at the very least at the same time as archer is worked on. However @Daniellll has made tweaks on this thread including some of the ones that you mentioned. If these were all implemented at the same time, then they'd help solve the problems of these classes too, and so I don't really see why you brought this up: it's rather irrelevant given he was offering suggestions to fix the problems with these classes too. The reason archers are probably in the open though is because they're not meant to be a capping class, they're meant to indirectly help with long range recovers and killing offense. In that regard they're extremely effective.

Firstly irrelevant given we're discussing whether the archer tweak is worth it. If you want to discuss complaints about this stuff, that's not relevant to this conversation either, so I'm not going into it any further than saying complaints mean nothing unless we have a successfull alternative, like @Daniellll is attempting here

And as I've already said that'll have to change, but this is moving rather away from the point of the tweaks in question, so I'll be sticking to those. As with the latter point, yes it's not going to be easy to do right, but equally it doesn't stop tweaks being made to other classes to fit in with this new CTF. I've already said instaheals should go if instakills do, which also includes engineer cake. Doesn't mean we need to tweak every single class to balance it with archer, but there are some concerns that would need to be addressed when things are changed.

Again, given the irrelevant context this is in, I'm not going to be debating what most would consider my ridiculously large ego. However, I'm sure you could look through my posts on this thread and see that I haven't actually referenced myself in the way you're accusing me of, and when I have mentioned myself, it's simply to nullify your accusation. Yes, you're arguing the opposite to me, and that this tweak isn't worth it. My original posts were nothing to do with my opinion on the matter:
1st post talked about instakills being removed because it's been clearly stated, and that whether you agree with it or not, that was the reality
2nd post was reaffirming this, again not with my own opinion, but stating that no amount of complaining would change that. The only minor opinion I did reference was you were counteracting the point of the nerf by wanting to make every other class weaker alongside it, which I'm sure went against the point archer was losing it's instakill because it was comparatively too strong in the first place
Those were the 2 posts you referenced initially about including me, when neither one of those did. You're welcome to read through them again if you don't believe me.

All totally your opinion, which is fine. I'd counteract that by saying if things didn't have a solution then the game would never evolve, and if things didn't adapt to stay irrelevant in the ever changing public eye, then the gamemode would die. Perhaps that's part of the reason brawl's not doing so well. Nevertheless, I will say it one more time. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, it's been clearly stated by the admins that instakills are going to be removed, which means archer is going to be nerfed. Whether you want that or not, it's going to happen. Feel free to contine to argue down this train of thought, it'll just become off topic, and I'm not willing to discuss what isn't relevant to this thread. I'm also not taking this argument any further, I think people have probably had enough of it with four of my posts, they're long enough as is. I'd suggest instead of complaining about the inevitable, you come up with your own ideas on how to change it so that it's done right?



And as for what all of that was about, yes I like the archer rework idea you have there, it would work nicely.

 

I mean I'm just here to see people's opinions on the tweaks, not @LordCh4os and @TheMaelstromsEye discussing something completely different ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

@TheMaelstromsEye and @LordCh4os I believe your discussion went slightly off topic, please return to discussing the proposed tweaks.

 

Actually we were still being mostly on topic since i was talking about how the archer nerf would effect archer. But fine ill talk about the other classes.

Medic i believe should have a longer cooldown of healing for specific classes or flag carriers. Ie heavy, dwarf, and chemist should have 30 seconds to 1 minute cooldowns with chemist having 1 minute cooldown since any chemist that actually knows what they are doing can survive well more then a minute, 45 seconds with dwarf, 30 with heavy. I do agree give sharpness back to medic and remove 1 steak.

Chemist does not need any buffs even if its a tiny one for one that isnt that important.

I disagree with dwarf, getting to lvl 10 takes a bit and can actually now die to pyro and chemist. The nerf to dwarf should be making it unable to block so assassins can actually kill them even in the best of flag rooms.

I enjoy this mages "nerf" idea but I actually would see that as a buff to make meaning that for 2 hearts it can go 5-10 blocks away from the enemy WHILE sending them the opposite way. +1

Necro i agree should be harder to remove its necrospawner, but dont nerf its pickaxe, necro has to be able to mine his necro spawner or other spawners/turrets. So that wooden pickaxe nerf wouldnt happen. Maybe have it used at the most 2 steak on its spawner to get the zombies buffed with armor and weapons.

Pyro i agree with since soldier and chemist get away too easily from pyro on most maps. I do not agree with the change it to 1 click since I am one of the many people who kept igniting frenzy by hotkeying to my axe.

Ninjas sword i agree should get a buff only if they make ninja unable to grab flag with enderpearl out of inventory.

I just described what the mage hitting itself with lightning would be used for

 

both

 

Can you please enlighten me on the routes to avoid archer on every map or at least specificity blackout, Canadian fort, dragons valley, ship battle, giant chests, valley of ruin(you can easily shoot the "underground") kill creek, platforms, river crossing. I think I've listed enough, there are far more maps(most maps) where you can't make it from one flag to the other with a route to avoid archers these are just maps where at least 3/4s of the way you're highly vulnerable to getting insta killed from an archer.

Archers strengths:

archer is a class with the fourth highest armor rating tied with necro and has four steak
insta kills from 25+ blocks away leaving no vulnerability whatsoever (0 risk for a crap load of reward)
No cooldown (pyro has 4 hits assassin has 20ish seconds)
No risk of dying at all unless another archer sees them or someone wants to go completely out of the way to kill them
Near infinite ammo (128 arrows and medics to resupply)
Decently equipped for melee battle whether you want to fight or bowspam them away with punch (stone sword full chain and 4 steaks is definitely not weak)
some people say it's hard but you can really just spam down a high traffic area and be affective on most maps and on others you probably get around 4 free try's before they are able to avoid you, as a pretty terrible archer I still feel as if I couldn't be as affective on a class I actually know how to play than on archer.

Archers weaknesses:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

effective*

Okay then. I never have a major issue with archers sniping me because i actually know to dodge them and outplay them.

blackout you dont have to stay on the top of the middle building, go along the sides or into the middle as not many archers snipe for the middle and many stick to snipers on the top of the middle building.

canadian fort go on the side bridges/hills, not the middle bridge.

dragon valley how about you stick on the opposite side of the stone bridge making it hard for the archers to snipe you.

Ship battle you can legitimately just outplay the archers making them fire at the sponge giving you a window to get on the sponge and get on the ship, or go in the underwater entrance, the other sponge on the other side of the island.

Giant chests go along the sides in those tunnel like buildings.

Kill creek go under the trees and under the bridge, not that hard.

platforms go on the sides.

i forgot river crossings look.

It isnt that hard.

 

Don't know if it's minecraft or my minecraft but arrows don't always accurately show where they are going

Archers can easily shoot the sides and the middle

If the archers render distance is above 2 and they are in the middle they can see you and shoot you

Still easy to shoot people there I've done it multiple times

Them spam shooting the sponge is a fun game of trying to get on it in the one second timeframe you have
Other sponges bring you off the ship leaving you 25 blocks away from the ship
Yeah let me just swim to the underwater entrance where i can barely even attempt to dodge

Again still headshotable easily and if you are in a spot that's hard to head shot any other class can knock you into the void

Under the bridge? You mean swimming 30 blocks having no ability to dodge archer can just jump from the bridge and shoot you or even just shoot from the side of it

As easy to headshot as mid if there's 2 archers one right mid and one left mid they can control all three paths to the flag or else the two triangle builds in front of spawn
If you have the flag an archer can simply take a few steps in the right direction to shoot you with only some tree trunks to block the shots

 

(

Just to clear things up heree - my original list for that update had two ideas that the staff added: Medic web change, which was my idea and the elf change, which b0s asked me to add (and something simple that Nom asked me to add I believe). Everything else had been suggested previously, on that thread or talked about by the community. Please don't think or continue suggesting that I ignore people, don't read their ideas or consider them. At least make sure you know know that I came up with everything myself before throwing my name in there, thanks.)

As for the thread:
Archer:
Headshot equals 9.5/10 hearts of true damage and a bleeding effect of half a heart per second will be held for 4 seconds.
Punch effect changes upon drawback.

Still not a huge fan of this bleeding suggestion that people keep bringing up. I don't see it killing many people or being anywhere near as effective as a needed headshot. I'm not sure if there are other ways around it, like you have to build up to an insta kill arrow or something - but, still iffy on this whole half a heart left concept. As for the punch, not sure because punch 2 seemed like overkill considering archer has a headshot, and archer should really be more vulnerable at close range, in my opinion.

Medic:
Replace its sword with a sharpness 1 gold sword.
Remove 1 steak.
Change helmet to a yellow leather helmet.

I would like to see medic be less of a tank, but I'd also like to see healing changed in some way that we can make medic squishy. If medic were more squishy, I wouldn't mind giving them their sword back and possibly making their heal less awkward. (No I don't mean revert it but make it less weird than sticking that cool down on it)

Chemist:
Change fire resistance to be for 70 seconds.

With the way buffs work, it just feels like every class already has buffs permanently. That's what I tried to fix with the fire res. change, but I guess that's just going to be the way it works..

Dwarf:
Remove potion/fire resistance all together.

We may lower the XP cap even further instead, and maybe it'd be interesting to add some sort of a mobility ability - but is it really that huge of a deal if they have this? I mean, they can only go to level 10, maybe even less, like level 6-7 - a buffed heavy with some help should be able to manage.

Mage:
Add getting knockback and damage for own lightning.

I don't see a reason for this.

Necro:
Place spawner in ground aka replacing the block in the ground.
Remove fence.
Remove carpet.
Put team respective wool block under spawner.
Replace diamond pickaxe with woodenpickaxe with efficiency 5 and knockback 1.

This would make it 10x harder for any class to break the necro spawner. Unless we add health to in like engineer, I think the fence should stay.

Pyro:
Change fire duration upon drawback.
Make the fire duration longer in general.
Change the 2 click frenzy back to 1 click.

Already has plans to be changed, as I've mentioned before.

Ninja:
Replace the sword with a sharpness 5 gold sword.

We can see how that works again I suppose.

 

For archer: I just think there should be a change upon drawback, no real need for punch II but there probably could be a change.

Maybe drawback could give you up punch 1 and we remove kb, but I don't think we need to re-add punch 2.

For medic: I'm not really sure if you mean we should change the healing + my idea, or something else. Could you explain?

Yes. Lowering health but fixing the heal.

For chemist: I feel as if buffing isn't easy without coordination, but okay.

Is it really coordination if everyone just waits at spawn then does their own thing? It's fine, it's not going to change so I've given up on that one dw about it - it'll be reverted.

For dwarf: Good idea!, thanks .

For mage: There have been made some replies about this.

I know, it's just my opinion on the ideas. I can imagine mages can already get out of situations very easily, lightning themselves will just help.

For necro: You could easily change the duration of breaking a spawner with coding, it's more about necro not blocking stuff anymore, not about the spawner getting removed less easily.

Ill ask Nom.

 

Alright, so I'm just now replying to this. Sorry for the wait.

Medic:
Besides reducing the armor points by 0.5, what all would replacing the helmet do? I do like the idea of adding sharpness back and removing the steak.

Chemist:
I see no issue with extending the fire resistance duration.

Archer:
I don't really like the bleeding aspect, but the idea of dealing a ton of damage yet not instakilling the target is interesting. I do like the idea of the punch changing according to how far you pull back the bow. It would make it so that the only real way you could "bowspam" someone who is trying to pvp you away would be to pull the bow all the way back.

Dwarf:
I completely agree with what you suggested.

Mage:
I don't know about this one. I like the idea of giving it the knockback, but I don't think Mage should get damage from its own lightning spell. I'd like to see what your reasoning is for making it affected by the damage as well.

Necro:
Honestly, this class just needs a gigantic overhaul. Why change the pickaxe to wooden, though? The pickaxe is Necro's main weapon, and changing it to a wooden pick would severely inhibit its ability to defend itself.

Pyro:
The frenzy should be togglable. Either 2 clicks, or 1. As for the fire duration, are you saying that if you pull the bow any amount enemies should be lit on fire?

Ninja:
I don't have anything against adding the sharpness 5 back.

 

I'm okay with ninja getting a damage buff as long as ghost capping is removed

 

In my own opinion I like a lot of these ideas apart from these:

Ninja - I do not like the sword change idea
Pyro - The double and single click frenzy should be able to be picked by the player by a command for preference.
Mage - Do not like this idea at all, getting knock back from own lightning would give mages a way to just launch themselves over the map and upwards too. Also the fact of lightning spell having a generally low cool down in my opinion too.