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Idea Elf Water Element Buff

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by GalaThundR, Aug 4, 2016.

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  1. GalaThundR

    GalaThundR Mcpvp Veteran

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    Pretty sure everyone is aware at how (practically) useless the water element is, but it is useful in those very few scenarios where it is useful.
    While the water element is good against pyros, it doesn't change the fact that once a pyro uses frenzy, not even the fastest reflexes will draw back the bow quick enough to extinguish it if the pyro is in hitting range. Along with the water element being useful in pre-fight preperation, the very low duration of the resistance effect makes it not worth wasting a precious arrow.

    My plan to fix this is to make the element used for weakening enemies and supporting teammates.
    Here are my ideas:

    Offensively:
    When the water element is fully charged and shot at an enemy, direct or in a 2x2 radius of the arrow, they will receive 10-15 seconds of slowness 1 and weakness 1, while giving off dripping particles on that player for that time.
    This would aid in recovery much better than the earth element, covering more in horizontal escapes for a longer amount of time while the earth element aids in more verticle escapes for a short time along with making the flag carrier more vulnerable to damage.
    This change would also allow elves to defend better against very versatile classes like chemist by canceling out their strength and speed temporarily.

    Defensively/Supportive:
    When the water arrow is fully charged and shot at a teammate, anyone in a 2x2 radius of that arrow will receive resistance 1 for 15 seconds and regeneration 1 for 8 seconds. These effects also apply to the elf when used on themselves.
    This would help in situations where the flag room is being rushed and situations where you or a few people lose a few hearts and there isn't a medic around.
    This would also allow elves to survive a bit longer in fights against tankier classes if used correctly.

    (Optional) Ability: Drenched
    This ability would mainly be effective against pyros, but could be useful against mages aswell.

    When an elf is caught on fire and they extinguish themself with a fully charged arrow, they will activate the Drenched ability. This would make the elf incapable to being set on fire, similar to medic, for 5 seconds. The elf would be dripping water droplet particles rapidly during this time.
    This ability would require 2 arrows to use.

    Tell me what you think! I'd love to see any buff to the water element in general, but these are my ideas to make the element more versatile.

    Feedback / Criticism is appreciated!
     
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  2. AdamLovesBarca

    AdamLovesBarca CTF player | Original MCPVPer

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    Some interesting ideas. I really like the offensive idea, as this would make Elf a much more effective class in offense, especially in well-coordinated matches. However, I disagree with the defensive part - water element should not give off nor resistance or regeneration, but instead give protection from water to your teammates. And Elf being able to use it on himself would be quite overpowered. I like the Drenched idea.
     
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  3. Arkenssine

    Arkenssine Member

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    Id love to see this implimented i mean i thought the quick solution was to just for a cost of X arrows you could instantly fire a water arrow but id rather see this idea
     
  4. lasertagfighter

    lasertagfighter Well-Known Member

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    So thats where all my arrows went.
    Srsly though, I love the ideas. I have no problem debuffing enemies and buffing allies with water!
     
  5. Xelia_

    Xelia_ (ノ^ヮ^)ノ *:・゚✧

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    You have to understand the impact of 10-15 seconds of slowness. That's a really long time, and it would make recovery extremely easy with less versatile classes, more than it should be.
    Similarly, 8 seconds of regeneration is a lot. Even if there is a cooldown on an ability like this, if there are multiple elves in a flagroom, that is a lot of regeneration. Mage's regen is already one of the most frustrating things in the game, I really doubt we need more healing abilities.
    The drenched ability is interesting, although you do have to consider an offensive elf. Elves are already very mobile as a class and have several methods of attack. This is countered by their low armour count. Additionally to this, they are one of the easier classes to kill via pyro whilst in the flagroom. Of course, they have their water element, but that is more so used after obtaining the flag. Once an elf actually steals the flag, they are fairly difficult to recover from. Giving them this medic-like ability enhances their offensive power by a lot, as it makes them almost immune to one of their counter classes (pyro), and makes them even more frustrating to recover off of.
    In general, I understand the idea behind these, and some of the concepts are interesting. They could be quite useful ingame with some more thought put into them.
     
  6. GalaThundR

    GalaThundR Mcpvp Veteran

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    I get what you mean. The duration of the slowness and weakness effects could be reduced. Albiet the debuff addition was more aimed towards chemists and how they can out-run most classes and are generally a pain to recover off of. I didn't put much thought into the other classes.
    I still want to keep the debuff attributes to this element making it more useful in an offensive / recovery role, so would reducing the duration of the effects to maybe 4-6 seconds be adequate? It would be unfortunate to have to deal with an elf that spams the water element over and over, but some elves already do that with the earth element and they're not common.

    Now that I look back on it the 8 seconds of regen was a bit much. Since the water element is used primarily for support the buff effects it gives out should be improved more then they are now. The water elements duration for a simple resistance effect is so low that it becomes practically useless. What if the regeneration was applied to a player when directly hit by the water element? Only giving off regeneration 1 for 5 seconds.
    This would remove the problem of the elf healing an entire flagroom full of defensive players all round by spamming the water element on the floor, but keeping the minor healing effect to get rid of random damage taken. I still think the resistance effect should be increased to around 10-15 seconds for elves to survive a bit better against strong classes and groups of people.

    I am an offensive elf so I did try to think about how the drenched ability would work. In the flagroom, anything that is not a chemist, buffed by a chemist, or medic is pretty easy for a pyro to kill. It has less armor sure, but can steak just a quick as any other class. (Pyro deals true damage when the enemy is on fire I believe, so you could be elf or heavy and you'd still take the same amount of damage from the pyro due to the true damage it inflicts when on fire). -I may be wrong, I don't know that much about how pyro deals damage. Remember, this ability can only be activated if the elf is on fire and shoots a full charged shot on itself. So the elf has to firstly survive the pyro encounter and enable the ability before they get extinguished. If used correctly this ability could be used very effectively against pyro's frenzy. This is more aimed as a support ability due to you having to distract the pyro or killing them off while someone else grabs the flag.

    Pyro isn't a counter to elf like you say it is. The water element was made to be, a counter to pyro's fire. If anything elf is a counter to pyro, albeit not a very good one. Elf's counters are the classes that rely in speed and mobility. Classes like ninja, assassin, chemist, soldier, any class buffed by chemist, ect. Elf's main damage output is the pure element which requires an insane amount of precision if you want to do anything useful with it. Anything with speed or advanced mobility makes it that much harder to use the pure element against. Miss the element once and the whole combo is ruined. Along with the speed+mobility of these classes able to chase down an elf trying to escape and killing it relatively easy once it's used all its arrows trying to escape. I would consider a buffed soldier or a ninja much more of a counter to elf than pyro.

    Thanks for the feedback and constructive criticism!
     
    #6 GalaThundR, Aug 13, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2016
  7. 915

    915 CTF Developer

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    This is a very neat idea! One thing that I think could be good is to extinguish the elf when they left click with the Water Element Bow, similar to how the Wind Element works. This could help when fighting pyro's frenzy.
     
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  8. BeanGollym

    BeanGollym Da Best Noob (Nukerator <3)

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    "GalaThundR, post: 755625, member: 26868"]Pretty sure everyone is aware at how (practically) useless the water element is, but it is useful in those very few scenarios where it is useful.
    While the water element is good against pyros, it doesn't change the fact that once a pyro uses frenzy, not even the fastest reflexes will draw back the bow quick enough to extinguish it if the pyro is in hitting range. Along with the water element being useful in pre-fight preperation, the very low duration of the resistance effect makes it not worth wasting a precious arrow.

    My plan to fix this is to make the element used for weakening enemies and supporting teammates.
    Here are my ideas:

    Offensively:
    When the water element is fully charged and shot at an enemy, direct or in a 2x2 radius of the arrow, they will receive 10-15 seconds of slowness 1 and weakness 1, while giving off dripping particles on that player for that time.
    This would aid in recovery much better than the earth element, covering more in horizontal escapes for a longer amount of time while the earth element aids in more verticle escapes for a short time along with making the flag carrier more vulnerable to damage.
    This change would also allow elves to defend better against very versatile classes like chemist by canceling out their strength and speed temporarily.

    One, great idea! I only see very few problems with this, you have to consider the time better, 15 seconds in ctf is a long amount of time especially if its slowness, you could cut the slowness out and just stay with the weakness, overall great idea!

    Defensively/Supportive:
    When the water arrow is fully charged and shot at a teammate, anyone in a 2x2 radius of that arrow will receive resistance 1 for 15 seconds and regeneration 1 for 8 seconds. These effects also apply to the elf when used on themselves.
    This would help in situations where the flag room is being rushed and situations where you or a few people lose a few hearts and there isn't a medic around.
    This would also allow elves to survive a bit longer in fights against tankier classes if used correctly.

    This has a pretty good idea too, but the only problem about this is that I don't approve the idea of 15 second regen it should only be 5 seconds or less maybe. This could cause elf to become to OP for anyone. (Mage is already kinda op ;-; please don't make another one >_>)

    (Optional) Ability: Drenched
    This ability would mainly be effective against pyros, but could be useful against mages aswell.

    When an elf is caught on fire and they extinguish themself with a fully charged arrow, they will activate the Drenched ability. This would make the elf incapable to being set on fire, similar to medic, for 5 seconds. The elf would be dripping water droplet particles rapidly during this time.
    This ability would require 2 arrows to use.

    You do realise that a fully charged arrow can mean you send it flying into the sky and it won't land right on you..? If you want I think the elf just needs to hit at least hit 2 people (Opposite team) so that the water can activate, then you can hold your bow a tiny bit back and then release to land on you. A bit like special moves in video games. I disagree you need 2 arrows as well, the time is good for 5 seconds, but if wanted can go longer in my opinion.

    Tell me what you think! I'd love to see any buff to the water element in general, but these are my ideas to make the element more versatile.

    Feedback / Criticism is appreciated!"

    Like I said great ideas, just a few cons that could be fixed up
     
    • Like Like x 1
    #8 BeanGollym, Aug 15, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
  9. GalaThundR

    GalaThundR Mcpvp Veteran

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    Thanks for the feedback. I covered most of what you talked about in my previous reply to @Xelia_ I edited the durations of the effects and tweaked how the regeneration would work.

    About the full charged shot, you don't need to shoot it straight up in the air. You can just shoot it at your feet and it would activate the ability, similar to how the buffs work now. This ability would only work if the elf is set on fire before they shoot the arrow on themselves. I'd be fine if this ability consumed x2 arrows but considering this ability would only really effect mages and pyros, I think it should consume only 1.
     
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  10. BeanGollym

    BeanGollym Da Best Noob (Nukerator <3)

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    Oh oops soz :3
     
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