Chemist's Kit is overloaded

I don't particularly see the class as overpowered at all. I think we need to work on the interaction between the strength pots and heavy, but not on the chemist itself

 

Teamwork should be overpowered, but not easy to execute. Currently it's too easy to get a massive advantage on another team because of one player whose own skill is irrelevant.

A bard style support class would be interesting, not sure if that's chemists' spot in the game though. Interesting ideas.

 

And the same couldn't be said of Medic? Or of Mage? What about Engineer? It hardly takes much skill to place a turret and a cake as Engineer let alone rapid heal (regeneration V) allies as Medic or Mage. At what point do you draw the line between what is acceptable and what is not in terms of support? At buffed Heavy? That seems to be the only case where Chemist buffs are considered to be too strong around here and virtually the only justification for either 1) nerfing them or 2) removing them.

We keep talking about how buffed Heavy is too strong and is problematic for the meta. I couldn't disagree more. Buffed heavy is very strong and powerful, there's no question about that. But the main reason why it's as strong as it is has less to do with its damage output as it does with the fact that too many classes are not any good at dealing a lot of damage, burst, sustained, or otherwise let alone take it.

Take the recent Necro rework as an example of this. The rework is the ultimate paradox. Necro gets stronger by getting into fights and dealing a lot of damage yet it is missing tools it needs to do just that. Necro's steaks were nerfed by 1, the armor is slightly weaker than Soldier's, the pickaxe is arguably less useful than before (+1 damage but no knockback), and the zombies are still hard to control, too slow to catch anyone out, deal too little damage, and die much too quickly. Heavy destroys Necro in a 1v1 without any buffs. It does so even more efficiently with them.

What this discussion is really about is not whether or not Chemist's buffs should be nerfed because they are too strong, of course they're too strong that's what makes them good, but is about whether or not the meta should be dumbed down even further in the interests of making one particularly strong (buffed) class less of a nuisance. Buffed Heavy is not just a problem because 140% more damage but also because of its broken critical hits. Therefore, I think the opposite approach is appropriate.

That approach being that classes such as Necro, Archer, Pyro, Elf, Assassin, Dwarf, and Ninja (among others) should receive tweaks if not outright reworks that tailor them to be able to handle buffed Heavies, Soldiers, etc. more efficiently and in a less extreme manner (i.e. Archer headshots, Assassin assassinate). Pyro's frenzy mode rework was a great way to deal with this as Pyro now deals massive burst damage in closed-in spaces (which it didn't before) eliminating any buffed players in a flagroom in 1-2 hits. But sometimes Pyro cannot sustain through more than a a few hits from buffed Heavy or buffed Soldier and because of that it should get protection I on all its armor. That's an example of one of the tweaks I'd like to see to deal with buffed players. More damage (especially true damage) with an emphasis on sustain (something like Lulu's ultimate or polymorph abilities in CTF could be interesting).

There's nothing wrong with teamwork being easy to execute. CTF is a team game after all, why should everything be difficult to do? That's not fun. And that's why many of the classes where doing anything particularly significant is hard to do, such as Necro, are unpopular. They don't work well with other classes and don't contribute a whole lot when they do. That's why so many people rely on buffed teams to steal the flag or rack up a massive kill-streak, it's because nothing effectively deals with other buffed classes except instant kills and other buffed classes. And it's because too many classes, like Necro, like Ninja, and even Elf are not (generally speaking) efficient at doing that. Why on earth would I waste my time trying to get into a flagroom as Heavy let alone Necro or Ninja when I could get buffs and a whole bunch of team-mates and do just that?

The current meta forces people to choose between using buffs and reaping a massive reward and not doing so and ending up more likely to have a bad time. No one should get punished for choosing the winning strategy.

Chemist is fine. It's a mix between a support class and a carry. So what if it can buff a few people on your team to 140% more damage and Speed I for a minute or two? Add in mechanics and abilities to all the classes listed above to deal with that. You know and I know that regular CTF isn't a team match. Those are two completely different worlds. For one thing there tends to be more than two or three people on defense (in regular CTF), and they're not always a Pyro or a Medic. The entire meta shouldn't receive a massive nerf just because buffed Heavies or buffed players can be more powerful in certain scenarios than others. That's the whole point of teamwork.

This thread is angling for a nerf on the wrong class at the wrong time. We've had enough of those already.

 

If you think about it, chemist is good when it's used correctly, with people who practice with the kit. Chemists who just spam pots and run around are useless, so, in a nutshell, chemist is fine

 

And the same couldn't be said of Medic? Or of Mage? What about Engineer? It hardly takes much skill to place a turret and a cake as Engineer let alone rapid heal (regeneration V) allies as Medic or Mage. At what point do you draw the line between what is acceptable and what is not in terms of support? At buffed Heavy? That seems to be the only case where Chemist buffs are considered to be too strong around here and virtually the only justification for either 1) nerfing them or 2) removing them.
I did say further up that I felt the same way about medic. Mage and Engineer I don't see as particularly strong at all tbh. Both are fairly easy to kill with teamwork except for a few extreme circumstances.

We keep talking about how buffed Heavy is too strong and is problematic for the meta. I couldn't disagree more. Buffed heavy is very strong and powerful, there's no question about that. But the main reason why it's as strong as it is has less to do with its damage output as it does with the fact that too many classes are not any good at dealing a lot of damage, burst, sustained, or otherwise let alone take it.
I agree with your notion of the tank nature of the class being the problem rather than the damage. Heavy is strong right now because a ton of classes got minor nerfs/reworks that worked in heavy's favor, and over time players noticed that it was strong.

Take the recent Necro rework as an example of this. The rework is the ultimate paradox. Necro gets stronger by getting into fights and dealing a lot of damage yet it is missing tools it needs to do just that. Necro's steaks were nerfed by 1, the armor is slightly weaker than Soldier's, the pickaxe is arguably less useful than before (+1 damage but no knockback), and the zombies are still hard to control, too slow to catch anyone out, deal too little damage, and die much too quickly. Heavy destroys Necro in a 1v1 without any buffs. It does so even more efficiently with them.
The necro rework is a differently story for me, but there are plans to fix some of those issues concerning its playstyle.

What this discussion is really about is not whether or not Chemist's buffs should be nerfed because they are too strong, of course they're too strong that's what makes them good, but is about whether or not the meta should be dumbed down even further in the interests of making one particularly strong (buffed) class less of a nuisance. Buffed Heavy is not just a problem because 140% more damage but also because of its broken critical hits. Therefore, I think the opposite approach is appropriate.
Crits are actually fixed.

That approach being that classes such as Necro, Archer, Pyro, Elf, Assassin, Dwarf, and Ninja (among others) should receive tweaks if not outright reworks that tailor them to be able to handle buffed Heavies, Soldiers, etc. more efficiently and in a less extreme manner (i.e. Archer headshots, Assassin assassinate). Pyro's frenzy mode rework was a great way to deal with this as Pyro now deals massive burst damage in closed-in spaces (which it didn't before) eliminating any buffed players in a flagroom in 1-2 hits. But sometimes Pyro cannot sustain through more than a a few hits from buffed Heavy or buffed Soldier and because of that it should get protection I on all its armor. That's an example of one of the tweaks I'd like to see to deal with buffed players. More damage (especially true damage) with an emphasis on sustain (something like Lulu's ultimate or polymorph abilities in CTF could be interesting).
I've always agreed with the notion of small tweaks very often rather than reworks every so often. It allows for classes to be quickly balanced towards the meta. I think balancing around heavy, since it's a "vanilla" class, is the best way to go.

There's nothing wrong with teamwork being easy to execute. CTF is a team game after all, why should everything be difficult to do? That's not fun. And that's why many of the classes where doing anything particularly significant is hard to do, such as Necro, are unpopular. They don't work well with other classes and don't contribute a whole lot when they do. That's why so many people rely on buffed teams to steal the flag or rack up a massive kill-streak, it's because nothing effectively deals with other buffed classes except instant kills and other buffed classes. And it's because too many classes, like Necro, like Ninja, and even Elf are not (generally speaking) efficient at doing that. Why on earth would I waste my time trying to get into a flagroom as Heavy let alone Necro or Ninja when I could get buffs and a whole bunch of team-mates and do just that?
I should have clarified. Neither teamwork nor buffing should be difficult, but right now there's no conditions for doing it. Half the time the chemist just switches classes after buffing, which in my opinion is not healthy gameplay.

The current meta forces people to choose between using buffs and reaping a massive reward and not doing so and ending up more likely to have a bad time. No one should get punished for choosing the winning strategy.
Noone should get punished for not being able to buy the chemist class with credits.

Chemist is fine. It's a mix between a support class and a carry. So what if it can buff a few people on your team to 140% more damage and Speed I for a minute or two? Add in mechanics and abilities to all the classes listed above to deal with that. You know and I know that regular CTF isn't a team match. Those are two completely different worlds. For one thing there tends to be more than two or three people on defense (in regular CTF), and they're not always a Pyro or a Medic. The entire meta shouldn't receive a massive nerf just because buffed Heavies or buffed players can be more powerful in certain scenarios than others. That's the whole point of teamwork.
Like I stated earlier, I'd like to see a bunch of classes, chemist included to receive small tweaks just to test how they would fit into the meta. These tweaks would be revertible if they were found to be going in the incorrect direction for the game.

This thread is angling for a nerf on the wrong class at the wrong time. We've had enough of those already.
Yeah, chemist isn't exactly priority rn.

Edit: Formatting

 

Thanks. Appreciate the response and for clearing up the thing about crits (I didn't know they'd been fixed).

 

I feel like people are only complaining because of the pro chemists who can multitask and throw 5 pots in a row while hitting three people at a time.

It's as if the difference in power between an experienced chemist and a new chemist is greater then any other class. And the pro chemists just make the entire chemist class look so good.

 

I don't think the right way is to nerf chemist/heavy, i believe other classes should be buffed.

 

the archer bow does big load of damage and sharp 5 does big load of damage critical attack does big load of damage damage is so beautiful of minecraft. I stopped playing it because I thought sharp 5 made I UNDERPOWERED and because I also suck at chemist and lost 20 fights versus samsark

 

yes it is chemist is op if you know how to use it

 

because you have to change hot bars fast

 

nor really but yeah

i mean you have to change to get potions fast you have to be good at that

can some one help me with getting on a team

 

there was this guy who goy caps every game wit chemist

 

I think chemist is fine, I do agree with pretty much everything in this post obi, but the mana thing, is the solution imo. It's fairly hard to execute chemist because of the mana. I may not be the best at chemist, but I remember when @Prank said I was a good chemist! <3 ( I'm b4d at chemist c: ) where my @Jul13n at to back me up :3

 

I think chemists are a little bit op (actually A LOT op since I've only been playing for a year) especially because of their pots which not only let them deal damage, but can help them too such as speed or regen. For a while now, I've been thinking they should change them a bit so they're not a pain in the *** to kill. However, everyone probably thinks that they're not too hard to kill but I disagree