Looking for Feedback - Chemist Testing, Flag Carrier Health Reduction Testing, & Upkeeping

Love the chemist resistance update, but I think that the stalemate update is unreasonable.

 

"Ninja, Chemist, Assassin, Mage, Elf, Pyro"
Ninja against ninja is very easy, chemist can be dificult but with 2 Ninjas at the same time shuold be easy too, I dont see so many assassins trying to cap, mage same Thing, Elf is sometimes harder then chemist, who is pyro capping?

What could be changerd?:
I think its a good idea to set (if possible) that Engis cant place turrets near the flag carrier, because with one or more engi bases its very difficult to recover the flag. Archer snipes the flag carrier is one way, but there are 1 or more engis plus Medics, and other Players, finding the Right Moment to snipe and Pearl into flag is very hard.

What do you guys think of this idea?

 

Seeing that medics are a large reason to making stalemates, perhaps make it so that medics can only heal / replenish flag carriers after more than 15 seconds? maybe, 30? As in, everyone but the flag carrier has a cool down of 15 seconds but the carrier himself/herself has a longer cool down?

 

If you deactivate /all u should prpbably deactivate /msg too.

 

unreasonable, as in, too much total heart reduction making it literally impossible to stay alive, and/or that the hearts reduce too quickly?

I would agree with both to an extent. Some minor tweaks could be maybe at least 1 heart less reduced and/or increase reduction rate by 15-30 seconds.
But first tbh i would start the reduction at 2-2.5 minutes instead of 1.5 minutes after stealing the flag. We shouldnt be affecting normal, non-stalemate capping very much with this change tbh, but larger maps or forced longer routes can make the flag carrier suffer more than they should. Also, with more time added to the overall heart reduction period, teams could feel more inclined to actually attempt to full-out recov ASAP instead a lame, easier option of turtling for a minute or two and then sending two ninjas with a chemist damage pot for an ez L recov.



EDIT: and i totally agree @PancakeLazaro, that can be a viable solution. My guess tho is that itd offer a bit harder recov than how it currently is/can be with the heart reduction, since 1 restore is sometimes all that's given anyways during a recov attempt - but it's very fair.

@CrazySchnetzler1 tbh engie needs to be looked at in regards to competitive gameplay, bc as u said, engie camping is a problem bc it can be very OP, esp at spawn. (u break the turret and the engie puts it up a milsec later xd) .... but since engie might get reworked soon(tm), im sure specifics like this will be taken into consideration

 

I don't think decreasing the maximum health of the flag carrier to 5-6 hearts is a good anti stalemate testing. I still think it's a really big punishment to the flag carrier, and yes stalemates are a problem, but punishing the flag carrier as much as it is in that testing is not for me the good solution. I've testing it a few times in casual ctf, and a few times in ppms, and I do think it is not working at all with the game. As we said before, a soldier who is holding the flag and have their maximum health at 5 hearts can be killed so easily by a ninja. An invisible ninja can kill the soldier with two hits, and the flag carrier can't do anything when that happens. It's frustrating for the flag carrier to be killed like that. And all of that example is with a soldier holding the flag, it's even worse for a medic holding the flag.

Also, especially in matches, this testing is not fair for both teams. What I want to express by that is when, for example, the blue team steals the flag and the flag carrier is almost ready to cap, but the red team also steals the flag and there is a stalemate, the blue team flag carrier has a big disadvantage here because their maximum health will decrease before the other team flag carrier maximum health. It is so unfair for the team who steals the flag first.

Another thing that I've seen in the past week is that now it is kinda easy to a ninja to ninja cap the flag, because there is no flag poison. It is the same for any other person who wants to cap the flag, it is easier when there is no one for recover the flag. For example, I was soldier and I stole the flag when I had 2 hearts with no steak. I was able to cap the flag so easily even if I had 2 hearts, because no one was trying to recover and there was no flag poison anymore. For me I do feel like this testing is giving to the flag carrier a too easy way to cap when there is no stalemate, but a too hard way to cap when there is a stalemate. There is no in between, it's either too easy or either too hard. It depends a lot of the situation and of the people who are playing, but I feel like this testing is not well balanced.

In general, I'm not saying that this testing is all bad. That is why I would suggest to maybe decrease the maximum health to 7 hearts instead of 5 hearts and put the flag poison back. This suggestion seems more balanced and at the same time I feel like it could be a better solution for stalemates.

 

do agree, much more reasonable and seems like a good spot for it, but maybe 6-7 hearts after max reduction depending on the class would be better? and to make it more fair like u mentioned, just start the pre-reduction timer for both teams only when both teams have had the flag at the same time, and itd only end after a team caps or until both flags get recovered - and the pre-reduction timer could also increase by 30sec or so to make sure both flagcarriers are at their respective spots with support before their health starts to drop

 

Chemist is a nice update and it makes the class much more useful than beforehand. I think mana consumption on certain potions should be raised slightly, however, as this version of Chemist took the class from running out of mana too fast to throwing too many potions without running out of mana.

Flag poison I have mixed feelings on. My opinion has been stated elsewhere on several occasions and I agree with @Swit2427 on many points. No matter what route is taken with the rework, the flag poison mechanic must stay. It allows for a ton of recoveries and overall adds a necessary balance to the fundamental basics of a gamemode like Capture The Flag. In most Capture The Flag games, the flagbearer being slowed or statused is a given.

 

I like your suggestion to make it more fair ^^. I think with the staff members and with the community we could develop a way to make the maximum health of both flag carriers decreasing at the same time.

I suggested 7 hearts especially because when the flag carrier will have their maximum health at 7 hearts and take the flag poison, it will make the flag carrier at 5.5 hearts. For me it's too much if we put it at 6 hearts, because it will make the flag carrier at 4.5 hearts when they will take the flag poison. And 4.5 hearts is not enough hearts. That's why for me 7 hearts seems better.

 

Does it? I don't think I have ever seen where flag poison has been useful. All it takes to counter flag poison 100% is a medic. One single medic. Flag poison is a useless mechanic; I don't know why it shouldn't be removed.

As for the maximum health reduction, we can always adjust that and 6-7 hearts seems more reasonable than the current state.

Then let's remove flag poison.

 

maybe only stop the flag poison when the heart reduction reaches a certain point?
could allow for 6-7 to be more reasonable while arguably being easier (and at least more consistent) to recov than at 7 hearts with poison

removing poison entirely does really make capping easier, which is a good thing ...altho slightly less thrilling x D, so maybe we should keep it that way, but just keep a flag poison damage for ninjas alone (tele cappers should get a harsh penalty too, but that could be looked at in the future)

 

How? Flag poison is literally useless, except for ninja cappers, but I already suggested a solution for that.

 

I like the new flag potion, because ist easier to recover. Waiting some time till some hearts were removed and then attack for example a soldier has only 6 hearts then, thats like 2-4 hits with ninja and then recover. Both sides are having the same chances to recover the flag.
That keeps the game going and I think thats better then waiting till the time is over so the Winner will be the Team with the most kills and that can take some time.

But I think the time shouldnt be one Minute. Thats too Long, I think (Feedback what you think please), like 30 seconds would be could, that makes the game more intense.

Other Thing:
Seeing many new Players [no this is not hate to new Players, its something that would help them understanding the gamemode] taking flag that were droped by the flag carrier to switch to other class, and running with it in the spawn. My Question to: Is there a way that would block the flagcarrier running into spawn? Like only possible if the Player got hitted into the spawn. Any Question to it, feel free to message me or Quote me.

 

@Versions i mean for non-stalemate, quicker semi-solo caps, esp without a medic

it's hard to see the difference poison makes, but sometimes it's the cause of me dying from ninjas from the combined quick sudden damage - while classes without regen suffer the most ofc

poison is more negligible in comp gameplay where there is guaranteed support and greater recov/def, all in all tho, i agree still doesnt do much unless ur an adrenaline junky or ninja capping with 1 heart left

ya thatd be really cool if it can be coded in - like if the flagcarrier got a damage tick, then from that milsec onward for like half a sec, the flagcarrier can freely move on spawn blocks instead of being pushed back ...not sure if thats somewhat feasible or not

EDIT: or have it like HCF spawn timer type thing (going off Raging), where there's a glass wall that's in front of spawn until PvP timer resets to 0

 

While this is somewhat true, I don't see it significant enough to keep flag poison imo.

 

I’ve been an offensive player for a long time now, and I feel flag poison is very justified for both carriers and defenders. Watch any recording/stream for a match, and 9 times out of 10, there’s at least one, if not multiple, recovery due to flag poison (either called out by commentators or blatantly visible).

Throughout testing period in both PPMs and casual play, I’ve experienced a ridiculous amount of situations where I definitely should’ve died, but didn’t because of flag poison. Without that mechanic, ninja capping is ridiculously more powerful. Without that mechanic, defense has a harder time recovering without spamming ninjas (even with 3 ninjas on me, I’m able to cross the map with half of my health pool without support or a medic). While you bring up a point with medic completely neutralizing it, the new update makes a medic almost laughable in both capturing and stalemates.

Approach the situation differently. Soldier used to take 0 flag poison damage, that was changed while allowing the basic mechanic to remain in tact. Same with medic restore over the years. It can be done, and this isn’t the way to do it

 

@ningeek212

I absolutely support ur idea of slowly decreasing the hearts when u carry the flag. Ive been testing it myself with different classes and idk if its just me, but a lot of people complain about ninja caps or ghost capping because it can be hard to recover on specific maps. So why not use the mechanics of ur flag poison and for example decrease the health of a ninja holding the flag by 2 hearts which should potentially make it way easier to recover and give the ninja less time to regenerate life and actually pearl to his own flag. Furthermore i noticed with actually having 5 hearts in a certain period of time as heavy carrying the flag its almost impossible to not get instakilled by a frenzy of pyro. And i mean heavy armored classes have (in my opinion) the job to actually take more dmg even as a flag carrier(especially heavy) and its basically one of the best classes to tank a frenzy from a pyro(when u got full hearts and steak) as it gives u the chance to take the first hit and steak in between. By removing the health amount to 5 hearts and pyro doing 6 true dmg(not 100% sure pls correct me if wrong) ur basically a one hit. Im not sure if this flag poison is intended to give the possibility to one hit such classes as they can be rly tanky but maybe instead give heavy some sort of debuff( for example slowness or weakness idek).
All of this above is my own opinion so if u disagree or suggest anything feel free to do so.