Looking for Feedback - Decreased Flag Pickup Delay

Let me summarize this for people TL;DR:

Offense: I don't think it was that bad, it's a very fun change

Defense: It's annoying and has blatant issues

Pyro mains already left in mass when it lost instant kill. I really don't think it needs anymore nerfs. I know this isn't a direct nerf to the class but this pickup change made certain classes more viable than others:

ELf: On some maps, completely unstoppable unless they have literally zero support.
Chemist: Already pretty strong, but hey a little extra op sprinkled in there never hurt.
Ninja: The games will now, more than ever, be decided by ninjas. Whoever has better ninjas will get more recoveries since that's the name of the game.
Assassin: Same as ninja.
Archer: Control C + Control V NInja.
Pyro: Only Ghenry will remain. But no seriously, you might get one person unless the offense uses water element. I've seen some posts that say "Oh just react faster" It's not like you cant see them coming in, it's that you can't do anything to stop them. Water element prevents them from taking any pyro damage, and the instant pickup allows them to get out before it wears off.

 

Spades' opinion is pretty much the same as mine, except I don't recall them changing ninja's pickup delay.

 

The instant flag pickup was a lot of fun to use but was to op for some classes but I feel like it should stay for classes like medic heavy engi necro even scout and dwarf for the lols maybe the soldier but all the classes like elf and chemist was way to op as they could run into the flag room and be out in no time.

 

its an interesting concept and it has made offense a little bit more enjoyable, but as soldier/medic if i even glanced at the flag i would pick it up, with or without intent. if it was this easy for me to pick up as those classes, then imagine chem or elf lol. i think instant flag pickup is a pretty good idea, but id suggest buffing def classes like pyro a little more before implementing it c:

 

Some classes should get a timer but there is also classes that shouldn't. That might balance it out more than every class having no timer. Like for example an elf, you can easily put a timer on their class so they don't necessarily just fly in the flagroom then dip without taking a single bit of damage. It's a really good idea to mess with those timers and finding the right time for every class can easily allow for more variety in the game. It could encourage people to play more offensive based classes, as you can take the timer away from let's say a heavy, it's bulky but mobility is a problem so it wouldn't be too OP if it didn't have a timer. It can work, just balance out the timers.

 

2 seconds seems like a lil bit much... maybe 1.5 seconds?

 

Unpopular opinion but this was an indirect nerf to mage, because despite being a defense-mid class mage had some value in the flag room bc it could lightning people away. Mage already has so few competitive roles, don't make that list smaller

 

Changing elf to this would make it unusable due to elf always winding to the flag post. Removing the only make elf good will kill the class it's already an underused class. The easiest part of elf is stealing and escaping the flag room however if you make it so soldiers can steal easier due to instant pickup there will be no need for elf as soldier does everything better other than stealing and escaping the flag room.

Getting to flag room - Elf - terrible due to weak armour and roaming ninja. Soldier - Decent due to avoiding most things. Chemist - The best choice for this option as it's tanky and can kill ninja easily.
Stealing the flag and escaping - Elf - The best due to it wind element and quick direction change. - Soldier terrible due to it being weak to pyro. Chemist - Decent as it can push pyro back with pots.
Carrying the flag - Elf - terrible and can die in an instant to ninja from having awful armour. Soldier - The best due to it can avoid danger climbing up trees and building keeping it out of reach. Chemist - Decent as it's faster than most classes and can kill ninja with potions however won't last forever without support.

Having pyro instant kill would actually buff defence more even with instant pickup i don't think it should be a think at all especially frenzy as it's already really powerful just if there was at least 350ms to pick up the flag it would balance things more having offence a hard time to steal but being picking up the flag quicker easier for the escape.

 

If you give every other class besides elf instant pickup then you're just asking for elf to be a dead class. As then why would you use elf, as stealing as soldier, or a tank class (Heavy, Chemist) would be much easier.
In my opinion give all the classes (besides ninja obv) the instant pickup and a direct strong buff to pyro to counter classes such as elf. Or, don't do instant pickup, at all.

 

It made chemist OP right off the bat.

It forces defense to have a above average offense. It means in order to get a more successful recovery, individuals will have to go farther away from the flag to get more damage off on offensive players. It also means that flag camping isn't always a viable option if a person can get a quick steal.

I have to be honest, I feel like this new mechanic is somewhat geared towards ending stalemates with matches. I have seen matches one and lost by inability to get a steal even though multiple people were positive of one. That bull**** moment when you are literally a micron off from the flag and you don't pick it up. Makes or breaks a match and it's frustrating. On the other hand, this means matches are going to be a little more challenging.

I'm kind of neutral on it. Personally, I play offensive defense so I don't go in t he flag room much and prefer targeting people before they get to the flag. I'm neither for nor against the change.

 

From the replies im seeing it might be better to half the pickup time instead of making it instant. That way elf and chemist are not too op, offense would still be faster paced and people are less likely to pick up the flag by accident. That way i dont think pyro would need a buff to continue protecting the flag either.

 

I actually really support this idea.

 

I have read through the thread and came across this idea: Instead of putting the banner on a fence why not change it to a banner above a coloured block(whatever sort, to show which teams flag it is) and change the pickup so people have to run over the block on the floor in order to pick up the flag. This gives pyro a better chance to defend against chemists as they have to touch a block on the floor and not just run by and also elf cant just wind element in and fly out at the same time with the flag.

Furthermore i really saw an increase of speed in the gameplay of offense and the game generally and it was a lot of fun playing, although some classes did benefit too much from it, meaning a specific debuff would be neccessary like i mentioned above.( Also i like the idea of increasing pick up times for individual classes to balance out offense)

 

it was good i liked it it helped elves A LOT vs pyroes and it was funny

 

Add a poll for this so we can see where it stands

 

Why don't you guys stop screwing around and actually do something for the server.
Like hmmm idk fix the class that's been broken for months now? Or making new varieties in ways to play or updating the servers? These little tweaks that you guys are so concerned about are going to be forgotten in about a month. The only people that won't forget about the tweaks are the conservatives that will hate them.

 

A Necro rework and other great things are coming. It doesn't hurt or consume a lot of time to do small things in the meantime

 

Hello!

So, I typically don't find the need to insert my unprompted opinions in matters like these, but this is a critical discussion. Technically, implementing a change as significant as this could heavily impact gameplay/enjoyment for better or for worse. Not to be dramatic.

To be completely honest, and after having been involved in two ppms with this testing, I have to agree with the majority. I was not a big fan.

BUT … It depends on what the goal is/was when drafting this idea. Overall gameplay benefit, or appeal to new audiences and players?

Let me elaborate on the latter. I've had a couple of friends try out Brawl CTF based on recommendation, and their individual scenarios and experiences all sounded quite similar. Here's a summary:

1. Friend logs on.
2. "Capture the flag? Oh okay."
3. Friend barely manages to even pick up flag after several repetitions.
4. Friend gets frustrated and doesn't come back.

Understandably, new players become unmotivated when their attempts on offense go awry. Of course there's a more defensive option, but often times, there's a "tunnel vision" perspective when someone reads the title: Capture The Flag. I've got to capture the flag, then.

Where am I getting at? If Brawl is looking to appeal to more newcomers with varying skill levels, then the shorter pick-up time option -- even if we cut it in half [250 ms] rather than set it at 0 ms -- should really be considered. Again, the human brain often becomes disinterested in something if the reward center is not pacified. Very few people continue to invest time in something that appears to be futile.

However, I'm sure this reasoning would fluster players who have stuck around and have practiced to become efficient in the gameplay. One might ask: Why should offense now be easier for people who have never played before, yet I had to work hard to get where I am today? Why should we change this when there are offensive players who can capture just fine at the normal time span?

It is a very difficult balance to maintain, I understand. To be honest, if we are to go through with a shorter pick-up time, I like JayOG's suggestion that we modify the length for certain classes that might be able to exploit this development the most.

The question now becomes, what do we truly want out of this change? And does it outweigh the costs?