Ninja needs to change drastically

Very well written @Tenshirox. I can't say that I agree with everything u said, but there are some good points there. The only issue I have is the part about enderpearls. I agree ninja needs to change, but keep the enderpearls.

 

inb4 "but sometimes ghostcapping is the only way to get past a good defence!!!1"

If a defence is strong, you need a good offence with equal numbers to counter it, not a single class that can make it across half the map within a half-second of stealing the flag.

If I told a new player "hey, there's this cool CTF game that's got nice strategy" and gave them a run-down of each class, including the fact that ninja can blink across the entire map, bypassing every player on the other team, I'd expect they'd be pretty put off.

Sure, pyro's OP. Chemist's OP. Ninja's plain broken.

 

I can usually catch up to ninja cappers - as ninja (lol)

how about just killing off ender pearls while holding the flag? speed two should be enough to evade whoever comes along (unless there's a ninja, of course), and it'd just efficiently kill ghosting without influencing recovery really

 

totally not a ninja capper :3

and i only ghost when there is dwarves.... the class thats needs to nerf is dwarf like srsly

i usually prema doe

and its pretty easy to stop a ninja capper... just as @Plautius said, catching up with ninjas are easy

 

Stopping a ninja with another ninja is actually impossible if the ninja carrying the flag retains his health until picking the flag up. Enderpearls move you a set distance in a set amount of time, nothing about being on another team will change that. IF the ninja is anywhere near decent and they manage to get the flag without being hit (which when you can try at least 50 times per game it isn't hard to imagine you succeeding once or twice) they can throw as many pearls as you can. They start out in front of you so you have no chance of catching them once they throw their second pearl.

Blackout shows this in action consistently.

Thing for @Tenshirox, keep in mind that although you (and I) love the recovery aspect of ninja but we need to keep in mind that high damage movement based play style leads to another thing from ninja's past. Targeting! Remember how much fun it was when you'd log on and the first person you encountered was a ninja and you killed them? Then they targeted you for the rest of your natural born life! This was one of the worst mechanics of ninja, the ability to be a "picky eater" and choose a target out of a crowd to kill repeatedly.

Maybe if they get a solid change back to recovery they can gimp invisibility a little to hopefully keep ninja away from backstabbing that one <insert whatever class you play here> 20-50 times per game.

Great post btw! Ciao,
~EBLkinz

 

I've suggested disabling Ender Pearls when the flag is held (and removing all airborne Ender Pearls thrown by the Ninja) but giving Ninja flag poison Immunity.

Ninja should be reworked, but so should Chemist. Ninja isn't worse than Chemist because it's a bad class. It's because Chemist a really good class. I think the first step would be nerfing the Sword and then making the exp bar fill more slowly, making Chemist's long term damage lower while letting the class still have great burst damage.

 

Ninjas can't pick up flag without a pearl in their inventory.
Ninjas are given black leather armor.
Ninja will no longer take damage from using pearl, but instead have a cool down between using it.
Eggs regenerate, e.g. medic's snowballs.

 

ngl if i play ninja defense i dont have that much of a problem with ninja cappers. the only time its problematic is when im like the only one defending and i have to kill chemists/medics/soldiers too, but defense is normally hopeless in those cases anyway.

i agree completely when you say that ninja needs to be more defensively/recovery orientated cuz atm if i go ninja def it normally takes like 3-4 attempts to kill most classes and then like 54000 attempts for chemist. its just not that fun anymore and i think thats fairly evident through the fact that people just don't play ninja recov anymore. even @Krabzz has moved away from ninja cuz its so useless against most classes

 

U realize This was cause more ghosting and less prematuring because people cant use their pearl when they have it

 

#ReBuff Ninja's sword to 11.5 damage.... Yes i agree @Tenshirox

 

I see many suggestions to simply disable Enderpearls when holding the flag, or an idea similar. This to me just doesn't sound right. If it's overpowered for capping, why isn't it overpowered for anything else? I think it is.

Enderpearls also promote death. You take damage at the cost of movement. And since Ninja's damage is relatively weak, they die often, but they can keep coming back with Enderpearls with little consequence, dying as much as it takes the kill, say, someone with the flag. In short, Enderpearls basically nullify the consequence of death. This gives the illusion of being a powerful class, but it's just a broken mechanic that promotes death in a game that, I would think, you don't want to die in.

 

Considering the respawn cooldown you have with all this lag going on I guess you care about your lives anyhow @Cher_

 

My only problem is that limiting ninjas mobility on offense also limits its mobility on defense, and especially recovery. However, in regards to the overall concept, I completely agree. It's pretty stupid that an entire defense can be bypassed and then capped on in under 3o seconds.

 

What if a respawn timer of around 15 seconds (number can be debated) was implemented? In its current state, trying to break through a Defense is extremely difficult as any enemies you kill on the way to the flag will instantly respawn and come back, or even flank you. The only way to reliably get through is with a Ninja, which is why this thread exists.

The Offense side has to travel across the entire map to reach the enemy flag, but on the opposite side the Defense is likely less than 20 meters away from their own. Killing enemies only serves to slightly delay the defense, but they will be back very soon.

A simple solution would be a respawn timer. While the defense still had the advantage in a long-term fight, if an offensive force can get the first few kills, they'll have a chance to push ahead without worrying about reinforcements.

A respawn timer would also help counter suicidal gameplay. You can try to rush the enemy to surprise them, but now there's a huge risk. As it is, dying is almost a good thing, unless you're a Dwarf, Engineer, or Necro. If you die, all your items are restored and you'll respawn close to your flag.

It's a common meta to kill yourself when your flag is taken so you can intercept the enemy more easily and recover. Pushing up and leaving your base should make the flag more vulnerable, and being able to kill yourself and instantly return to your base removes that vulnerability.

A respawn timer helps remove stalematey gameplay, where both teams push up against each other, like a wall smashing into another wall. Getting kills and staying alive actually matters now, and Tankier classes like the Heavy suddenly start to become more useful.

While people may be bored waiting for their turn to respawn, the overall flow of the game should improve drastically.

 

I agree with the thread as well as many of the posts regarding Ninja's power. In random matches, Ninja is a decent recovery class, as the opposing capturing force normally consists of 1-2 players, which Ninja can take advantage of with some skill. In team matches and random matches with more coordination & teamwork however, Ninja is nearly useless as a recovery class, as its damage output is not enough to out-power groups of armoured classes, even in numbers. In these matches Ninja only shines as a capturing class that punishes defenders far too much for a even a slight lack of attentiveness. Even in its recovery role versus singular targets its main niche is the ability to return to its previous position after death in a matter of seconds, which is far more efficient than preserving itself despite its potentially infinite health pool. It's clear to me that for Ninja to be brought to a power level it deserves, it must be punished for death and perhaps rewarded more for self-preservation, given more damage output, and have its capturing ability nerfed. As a player with a lot of experience both playing as & fighting against Ninja, here is my proposal for adjustments to the class:

1. Increase its sword damage by half a heart.
2. Increase its starting amount of health by 1-2 hearts.
3. Delete airborne pearls upon stealing the flag, possibly remove its ability to use enderpearls while carrying the flag. (I don't particularly advocate that, as it would kill Ninja's capping ability entirely, but simply removing ghosts may not be enough to some people.)
4. Add a ~5 second timer upon spawning during which enderpearls are not able to be thrown. (Exact time subject to change.)

Having played Ninja during its golden age, I want to see it back to its former glory, but in a way that makes it fair for both the Ninja and its opponent. I think these few changes are sufficient enough to bring Ninja to its rightful place in the class hierarchy as a fun & balanced class.

 

man i completely forgot this was ever considered. would love to see this implemented to compensate for the sword nerf too