Idea Ref Rank | Discussion & Ideas.

that only shows for staff

 

oh hey haha!
Unlocked.

 

me

 

Personally, I don't see the point of why ref rank would be considered a "semi-staff" rank such as Build Team / Wiki Team / Media Team. These teams all directly help Brawl in gathering players or helping Brawl in a whole.

• Build Team builds maps for Brawl which helps gather new players by providing aesthetically pleasing maps and hub.
• Media Team makes trailers and videos for Brawl which is a huge part of their advertising.
• Wiki Team keeps the Wiki updated for Brawl allowing new players to have a large wealth of information at their fingertips.

All of these teams directly help Brawl in gathering new players, which is something Brawl should risk giving commands out for which even then, only Build Team has commands that could jeopardize the server if misused. The Media Team and Wiki Team have no permissions on Brawl, and the Wiki Team doesn't even have a tag on Brawl.

However, now we're talking about giving players (not staff mind you) the ability to

• Set class limits (disable / enable / restrict)
• Adjust timer (lock / set / unlock)
• Set others into spectator
• Change maps

and all of these commands would be functional on casual CTF servers along with Match Server. Even build team can't go on any map in the build server and use WE commands, so why would we want to trust community members with that much power where it could be easily abused and affect a majority of new CTF players?

Along with that, why would Brawl ever want to risk giving that power out to normal players when Brawl doesn't even need a ref rank ? What part of ref rank would help attract new players? New players are not going to instantly join CTF Teams, and they sure as hell would't be in any of the PPM discords. New players are never going to touch the match server, so why should Brawl risk so many commands on a community member just so they can please a small section of their playerbase (A.K.A. the CTF Teams Community / Not just the CTF Community). All of the other 3 ranks above help attract / keep new players, helping Brawl as a whole, but ref rank would simply just be for the CTF Teams.

In my eyes, that risk / reward is nothing compared to Build Team, and especially when considering the fact that even though some matches may not get refs, no one has ever left the CTF Team scene because of it. Sure, we get pissed and annoyed when there is not a ref around so our match can be official, but has any one truly ever left because of the lack of a ref? And if I might have missed a single person in the midst of our community, answer me this. Would Brawl rather lose one veteran CTF Player vs potentially turn away a bunch new players? Brawl has an lower chance of getting any revenue out of the veteran CTF Player (who probably already has all the classes) instead of a fresh new player to the CTF server.

At the same time, Officials are the only matches that need a ref in the first place. You guys do not need refs for Unofficial / Squad Matches or PPM's. Any Mod can set up maps / manage limits and timer on the match server.

So giving out ref rank (in my opinion) to community members is something that Brawl will probably never do, unless they are able to separate commands between Match / Casual server, but that has already been said that it can't be done iirc from the past 15 forum debates we've had (and even then it would be a longshot). If we were giving out "ref rank" to current staff members heavily involved in the CTF Teams scene, now that would be something more appealing to Brawl because, well, they're Moderator material. And what do refs do? They moderate a match.

 

I can think of a few times when mods have not set up these events despite being asked.

I've already weighed in with my opinion on the MSW discord, but to briefly summarise:
- there is no real reason why it could not be treated as a semi-staff rank, and in a number of ways it would solve some of the problems with giving it out to players, such as avoiding untrustworthy players
- there have been some really terrible excuses to cover up for the real reason behind this. That real reason of course being the mods don't really want to give that power out to the players. That real reason has perfect legitimacy and I can totally understand why they wouldn't want to do that. It's frustrating when people make excuses to try and cover that up, because it doesn't need doing.

just for anyone interested: I took a look as well, and semi-staff also cannot see that tag available.

 

Chaos did you not read my statement? I just explained why the risk/reward of giving out those commands to community players is completely not in favor of Brawl profiting at all. It's completely different than Build Team / Wiki Team / Media Team, only one of which has actual commands to abuse on Brawl. It's not an excuse, it's a legitimate business strategy. Hell it's one of the basic concepts of any logical process. If the outcome doesn't benefit you or has less chance of benefiting you than hurting you, the answer is not to do it.

 

get your ctf app ready @Grenzo

 

Welp, that's an issue, contacting someone to fix.

 

This is incorrect. It isn't something Brawl necessarily should risk giving out, it's a risk Brawl decides is worth taking. Wiki-team does not attract new players, it helps retain them by teaching them the basics of how a particular gamemode is played. it does not entice new players on it's own. Build team is much the same. A pretty build helps to retain a player that has already chosen to join the server. A build will only entice a new player if that build is advertised before joining the server, not when they've already entered it. You're mixing up player retention with gaining new players.

The first part of this is straight up wrong. If I wanted to misuse my powers I could go onto the wiki right now and edit the classes on CTF to a point where all of them don't show correct values. If players listened to these values, they could be messed up to the point of leaving. If not leave, I'm fairly sure it'd be at the point where they would doubt the trustworthiness of brawl itself given not even their Official wiki was right. Just because it's not an in-game feature, it does not mean it doesn't have an impact. Yes, the build team does also have commands that jeopardize the server.

Different gamemodes on brawl obviously have different setups. Given jmods on certain servers are only given permissions on 1 gamemode, I presumed that you could set something up with the match server as seperate to CTF as a whole. If that's wrong, then that's something I haven't already been told.

The only difference between a moderator and a community member is that they've applied and been selected by the staff. I said on discord this should definitely be something to be applied for. If you don't want to trust the "community", then that's fine, but don't forget you came from that community

see above

Would help you retain the ones you're starting to lose.

I like your utilitarianistic approach, so answer me what are your retention rates on CTF as of right now? That bunch of new players might be more in terms of number than a regular, but the regular might be potentially worth more in terms of retention than all of those players put together. As for money, I think the brawl store is quite frankly a mess with ranks costing far more than they should anyway. It is fairly clear with reasonably priced goods (like the cosmetic tags) a lot of regular CTF players buy them a lot more than newer players. You can't sell classes without it being against EULA

I'm not saying give it to every community member, that would be absolutely ridiculous. I'm saying give it to the ones you can trust. Kev, I 100% read your post, I just think a fair bit of it is rubbish.

To make this even clearer, with what I said:
"there is absolutely no reason why it could not be done"
That does NOT mean it necessarily should be done. It is, as you have already pointed out, a risk. It is, like I said at the start, a risk brawl has to decide whether it wants or does not want to take. I expect it probably won't given most of the staff are adamantly against (some to the point of getting rather angry) the matter. That means don't get your hopes up, for anyone in the community who wants it.

 

1. Just because it isn't necessary isn't a decent excuse to let it happen. I'm sure it would also easen stress on staff members jobs if there would be a few extra helping hands in the scene to just control a certain aspect of CTF. I'm sure it would make being a moderator way less stressful and would make it much more enjoyable if teams do not have to rely on 4,5,6 available mods,sometimes in the presence where only 1 is available at a time. In that case if another match has to happen which would also have to be official, who is to ref it? More helping hands is always beneficial

2. The ref rank was never an idea to bring more players into the community. It was always an idea to help out the staff members and maybe even bring the committee and community closer than before, where anyone can be a referee, as it wouldn't be as super strict yet still have some hefty requirements to become one.

3. Ranks can stick to one server only. I've seen it on another thread regarding ref rank, look at screenshot below, however in a nutshell it is confirmed that ranks on specific servers and specific servers only can happen. Build team can only operate extra commands on build, jmods that havent been promoted to global JMod can perform jmod commands on their respective server. So, with that in mind ref rank specifically and only on the match server, and not on normal ctf servers can happen.

4. Even if officials are the only requirements for a ref, what to do when there's a PPM or an unofficial and maps need to be set, and no mod is online? It would be frustrating to just wait 20+ more minutes for such an event to start when it should've started on time. A ref rank would solve this issue and would as I stated before, take off some of the burden from the CTF committee's shoulders.

Also, if there's a ref that abuses his power, instant demotion. Same system works for something like build team, jmod etc. Since they'd only have power on the match server they wouldn't be as risky as on a normal ctf server. And besides, it wouldn't simply be an application then accepted process, applicants would have to be tested and reviewed, possibly monitored whilst refereeing a match before making a final judgement on their decision to be promoted to a ref rank (If more and more referees are promoted overtime, then this testing could be done by the referees, again making it less complicated for staff members).

EDIT:
here's proof that CTF and CTF_MATCH are two different server types (took a bit of gravedigging posts but hey)

 

Two things I will clear up now. I had two mistakes within my argument (my fault sorry).
1. CTF is selling classes (I had heard that we were going to start selling classes again, but I must have misheard something even though we are selling fashionista)
2. It is possible to code a separate rank specifically for match server (however it would take a lot of work from the already busy devs, and I do specifically remember not having this be possible beforehand.

I'll try and get a response to you two tonight

 

1. we're not supposed to be selling non-cosmetic classes for EULA-related reasons. Fashionista is something a little different but nevertheless it was restricted to the vast majority of CTF regulars until now and as such many are still buying it. Once it is bought, then it is of course kept. That is where new players would matter more.
2. coding work is of course a constraint on almost anything involving CTF. This point will of course have to come in to prioritising which things are added to the gamemode.

 

CTF staff prefix fixed.

 

It would literally cause no harm adding this, and instead really just be beneficial for the competetive side of CTF. And If you think about it there are key reasons for why it should be added:

• Would make it easier to start PPM's / matches (aswell as practices, scrims, unofficials, etc.)
• Finding a MOD which knows how to and is able to set maps for any type of match / practice can be very hard, and can then result in the event getting either postponed or even cancelled, which in that case the Ref rank would be a need.
• If a MOD is not playing and any sort of issue pops up, regular players will not be capable of doing anything.
• Would make matches, etc. less disturbing aswell as stressing, for the CTF staff.

In what possible way could this be harming for CTF? Basically every player on the competetive side of the gamemode is for adding this, and clearly has been over years. (as this thread was created back in July last year)
V V

 

i wasnt too convinced either way before, so i sided with just staff being able to "ref"

but now seeing how ~vibrant~ community members are in setting up and hosting PPMs, i see no harm at all in promoting and helping them continue to host these fun games on the fly, knowing some may not want the full, more entailing responsibilities that come with being staff (& applying for it in the first place)

this Ref rank could be used for only unofficial matches, and the CTF Committee and the strike system is already in place to deal with rule breakers - doing something as harsh as setting the timer to 0 in a comp match will certainly have harsh consequences

maybe have it so those with the rank get a grey [Ref] tag perhaps only viewable on the match server and the commands available to them or capable of being used also only when on the match server (the explanation for this should be clear enough {for decreasing the chance of abuse with casual, nooby players who do not know much of anything}, but i can explain if some1 wants a more detailed opinion)

any1 interested should just contact fellow Refs/hosters/ctf mods tbh & inactiveRef=ezDemoteExde or else every1 could have the rank xd tbh the only qualifcation is that ur a semi-super active, trusted organizer who wants to or currently helps with PPMs and such
(and maybe, just maybe, in the future there can be Senior Refs who are trusted & respected enough to be trained to ref and/or co-ref official matches with staff)

 

Give the rank to a few trusted community members, which is also familiar and experienced with hosting PPM's. Both you and I know that there are people which would not abuse their commands (such as @CoasterHamza , @Cardona360 , etc).

^