Looking for Feedback - Engineer 2.0 and New Class

Yeah, I think reducing more can only lead to good things. Scout can do more risky swaps, etc...

 

Aight. Text wall incoming.

So. Currently, they are both ****ing trash. But good ideas. Imma start with engineer.

Engineer:
The engineer rework. . . has good ideas. But the execution is not great at the moment. The rework is fairly useless and unreliable in any situation right now, especially with the state of it's abilities right now. If you're standing near a corner or under a fairly low ceiling, your tnt grenade thing will bounce off and go in a direction that you really don't want it to go. On top of that, your abilities don't provide enough utility to be good or even decent at any role right now, not even as a support.

The speed pad and healing pillar. . . holy **** they are ****ing hot garbage. Dont get me wrong, I'm so glad the tele is gone. I hated that. But I was hoping for a more mobile solution or just an entirely different idea rather than another stationary ability. It's the same with the healing pillar. Both are stationary abilities in an extremely mobile game. The most utility you can actually get out of them is to go with offense/recover and place down the speed pad to get across the map, pick it up again, place it down as soon as possible, rinse and repeat until you are where you wanna go and I guess just leave it there. Healing pillar. . . is just so ****ing useless in general. Regen III literally doesn't do **** unless you're out of a fight. Sure it'll give you a few hearts in the fight, but it's still probably the most useless ability in the game.

Engineer Solutions:
Few things you can do with this.

For the grenade launcher. . . I would like to see it change to something like mage's freeze spell. Small, more reliable hitbox that you can easily shoot where you want it to go. I'm not saying you can't use it well right now, but the ability would be a lot more reliable if it was changed to that. Another thing I would like to see for the GL is being able to right click again to detonate it. I know "grenade launcher" doesn't imply detonation at will, but I think it would make the ability and the class a lot better and more reliable.

For the speed pad. . . Honestly, I don't know what the **** to do with it and healing pillar. Either go with something like @Nakatago 's idea and make it some hotbar aura or something, you could make it like a different GL ammo thing kind of like elf and shoot it at teammates, or whatever. Whatever the case is, it needs a massive ****ing buff, and I would really like it to be mobile. At the very least, buff the speed (cause speed II doesn't do ****) and balance accordingly (i.e. maybe only give speed I-II to flag carriers and speed III-V for everyone else). That or just do away with the idea entirely and go with something else.

The healing pillar is in the same spot as the speed pad. Stationary = useless. The amount of regen is also pretty useless. Just. . . I don't ****in know. Please make it mobile in some way. Engineer will legit be the new necro (completely useless) if the speed pad and healing pillar stay this way.

I'm not gonna say anything about the armor because honestly I don't know how OP everything else will be once it's actually viable in casual and/or competitive play.

I do love the grenade launcher though. It's a really good fun, unique replacement for the turret that provides MOBILE damage.

Scout:
OKAY. Scout. Once again, ideas are super good, execution is again a bit iffy (though much better than engineer).

Honestly, the thing that is hindering this class the most is how ****ING SQUISHY it is. You literally cannot do anything for more than 5 seconds without getting two-shot. The two classes that are more squishy than it are assassin and ninja, both of which have end all be all abilities that justify the squishiness: Assassinate for assassin, and invis/eggs/mobility/high damage for ninja. Scout does not have an ability that is like that. It's mobility option is simply not reliable enough to be considered OP in an offensive/defensive state, and it's death tag (while still very good) is not good enough to justify it's barely better than assassin armor. Assassin literally has an instakill ability and speed III. Ninja can go ****in invisible, teleport across whole maps in 4 seconds, eggs that can blind and cancel your sprint, and a sword that can cut through **** like a ****in lightsaber. Scout has a swapper ability that may or may not hit at close to medium range (dont even try long range), a death tag ability that you have to touch ****in nipples with the enemy to apply (keep in mind, they can two shot you), a sword slightly better than a diamond sword, and . . . speed 1? Yea no.

Scout Solutions:
Obviously, give it more armor, more survivability. Honestly, I'm probably fine with it having just two steak. Buff the armor, MAYBE nerf the sword a bit, and ****, throw in passive speed II or III depending on the balance again. Even with more survivability, the steak count is still low and would justify an increase in speed.

I'm assuming death tag not restoring unless healed by a medic is not intentional. But if it is, get that **** out of here. It's not like ****in ninja eggs, it's an ability. It needs a cool down.
Personally, I would prefer making death tag a skill shot not unlike mage's damage spell. Give it a range of 5 blocks or so, just so you don't have to touch tits with the dude you're trying to kill, and it also helps keep you alive a bit more. On top of that, trying to hit someone with a name tag before the sword is super tedious and just gets you combo'd before you can actually do anything. Making it a skill shot will 1. make it require skill lol it's a really ****in powerful ability, it should probably take a bit more than just ***** slapping someone with it to apply and 2. give scout a better chance of staying alive while actually trying to apply it. ****, if y'all are really that pissy about it, you could just make it a bow and arrow ability too, furthering the "scout" aspect. I do think it fits the class though, cause when I think of marking or "tagging" someone to die, I would think a scout could do that.
As for it's cooldown (because it should be on a cooldown) I would suggest a smaller cooldown time if you simply miss your target, but go on a longer cooldown time if you hit and the target either dies or the death tag wears off. It should be a longer cooldown than most abilities in the game since it is such a powerful ability, soooo I would suggest something like 10-15 seconds for a hit + death/wearoff, and maybe 5-9 for a missed shot.

Other than that, I love the class. Even though I died every time I tried to do anything with it, the swapper ability was so fun to use and the death tag seemed like a very powerful ability. Honestly, I think this class will change up the meta a lot in the future, especially in competitive play. The amount of opportunities you can provide for your team with the swap ability is pretty much endless and I think it'll be a huge favorite of players in the future.


Anyway. OVERALL the ideas behind the rework and the class are super cool and fun, it just needs to be changed a good amount to be actually balanced/viable. Hope this wall of text gives y'all some good ideas.

 

I've already mentioned to fellow staffers, but I'd like others opinions too! (most of it is the same or building off of feedback above)
also i agree entirely with @BrandinoB ... im just too moderate to say it like that x'D ngl we released classes on the weaker side of the spectrum...our first move should be having them more OP and refining it from there, but in the end it'd be the same if we move toward a fun "balance"


–Engineer– (needs a lot of improvement tbh ngl ... i hope it can be more fun or as fun as old OG engie...)

– Biggest thing... reduce the cooldown of the launcher by at least 1/4th... so 3/4ths the current cooldown length.
– Also would suggest adding sharp I in additional to knockback I if the cool-down stays that high at 3/4ths the current time length.
– Another big point, as @obikenobi21 mentioned, just remove the restrictions from its "buildings"––most especially for its speed pads.
– Minor point, as already suggested, but making speed II into speed III (or increasing duration) would be a nice (maybe keep it at speed II if you have the flag).
– I agree a lot with the healing beacon (disliking its stationary-ness). I suggested a floating "pet" cake which would essentially be a floating cake beacon following the engineer giving a regen aura (I'd prefer this to a default aura as @Nakatago suggested bc itd keep its infamous 'cake' and is pretty cool/unique). There wouldn't be a need to buff its armor with this, too. Also, it could despawn or be easily destroyed when entering the flagroom, so it's not too OP in anyway.

Spoiler: "Cake pet" details–

Floating "pet" cake (purple ender pearl particles under it) - bit more intuitive/noob friendly, and all around better for not being as campy, bc the regen and its super ability would always be much more present for the engie - not being restricted to a single site of the current cake beacon

- Follows engineer (just slightly delayed) about 2 blocks away like a pet

- Players can push & move through it as if it is a mob entity​

- Will teleport back to engineer if stuck at a corner or w/e (like a wolf pet?)​

- Gives regen ~3.5 to all non-enemies w/ radius of 4 blocks-ish (the current radius)

- Floating white, gold, or regen particles disappearing/reappearing
w/i the regen circumference
​

Additional potential idea....(while restoring items/steak is another good idea)

- If right clicked by engie, gives resistance II + slowness I/II for 8 seconds just to the engie &​

removes a slice of cake (resis II bc ninjas will eat up & scare away squishy noob engies
who no longer have their turret to automatically assist them)

- Cool-down of ~15-20 seconds

- After ~15-20 seconds, another cake slice will reappear if any are missing​

- If right clicked by anybody else, says: “Sorry, only the engie, [player name], can

eat this cake!”​

- If left clicked once by an enemy, removes a slice of cake

- If no more cake is left, it takes 10 seconds to “bake” the cake before being able
to place down the cake again​

- Video Explanation (the details are all listed, more accurate, and better presented here in this post, but you can visually see what I mean about the floating cake and rideable turret in the vid)–

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– Going back to the grenade launcher, I'm not a crazy fan of the delay and lack of precision as @BrandinoB noted. I would prefer a grenade launcher that'd throw snow-ball like grenades (acting as a snowball projectile but as a different item) that explode upon impact (or at least exploded faster) = ton more reliable and useful and I'd say more fun since it'd be much more fast paced. This isn't really a tweak, but a change. It's not super necessary but something I'd honestly prefer.
– Going off of that, I think the current grenade launcher is a bit dull and not too unique/fun (although it kinda is). I'm also lowkey salty that we're completely throwing away the turret. The turret was for sure OP, but here's a tweak to make it like a special item weapon, in addition to its grenade launcher–
(TL;DR, this turret could be used every ~20 seconds and can only be manually operated and used as you're "riding" it, as if you are the turret itself through a narrowed FOV, controlling from on top of it. It'd have only 3 medium-caliber explosive arrow shots before it disassembles and the cooldown commences.

Spoiler: Temporary rideable turret details–

Engineer temporary rideable turret (for fast & accurate, long-range action, help take out archers, etc, etc)

- If there is not at least 2 blocks in b/w another placed turret, then it cannot be placed
(harsh unnecessary restrictions stink - the only reason for this is so it cannot physically block a pathway)

- The structure can be hit & destroyed in 2 hits by any enemy

- (Engie can still be damaged if hit)
​

- Right click dispenser to spawn and automatically ride the turret

- Riding turret, gives the engie slowness I/II (so FOV change, constant with the slowness/FOV change of the super cake ability)
​

- Only has 3 shots (same velocity & distance for a shot as the current turret shots)

- Either dealing default arrow damage + an explosive area damage of 1 heart of true damage (with same blast radius as the TNT grenade, but rather exploding/based upon its impact)

- Or…deals 2 hearts of true area damage for everything in its small radius (exploding/based upon its impact)
- Fire rate is either the same as current engie turret or more similar to mage damage spell fire rate​

- After 3 shots, it will dismantle

- Could also automatically dismantle after ~8 seconds, but there’s no harm to enemy team being afk in turret mode, and it’s an easy cool way to chill afk, like as a lazy sentry​

- After dismantling, immediately remove engie’s slowness effect & having a cool-down of 20 seconds before being able to enter turret mode

- (20 second cool-down would work so that the engie can fire 4 TNT grenades before being able to re-enter turret mode = more fast paced & more engaging = more fun

- (Keeps the base of the class, the turret, in this whole new engie class, and even its team-based support teleporter related to a team-based support teleporting floating cake (also mimicking the OG), plus speed pads also relating to giving team support mobility...all tied to the MCPVP nostalgia)​

–Scout– (i love scout, it's super fun & fast paced w/ swapping ... but i still think it needs work & can improve)

First off, I just want to throw out this idea that I think would be an incredible fit to Scout–
...the /hub "double jump" ability––boosting the scout twice in any direction in the air after hitting space bar twice consecutively (with a cool-down of 10-20 seconds?) for even better scout-like mobility.
– Scout is super annoying swapping players into the void, but hey, it's going to happen either way. :> With this double jump, the Scout could run into the void, miss the swap, and double jump back onto land where maybe one of your teammates can kill the Scout off (also keeping in mind that the double jump would have a cooldown preventing the Scout to do the same care-free maneuver again right after)
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And I totally agree with @obikenobi21 that after you swap with some1, ur **k'ed being surrounded by a ton of ppl in the likely case where u swap into the flagroom, and theres nothing to help scout in that situation.
And going off of that, it's still a little too squishy tbh.

So, a potential solution (on top of upgrading protection I to prot II...)–
– Restore all missing hearts as absorption hearts after swapping with a player (& after using death tag?)

So the scout would still be squishy, but way less likely to be 1 or 2-shot.
Also, I really don't see much of a need to be giving (the player who gets swapped) 3 absorption hearts––as in some cases it just benefits that player. Like if I get swapped, I thank the swapper ngl. The only case where being swapped out is bad is when you're a stationary defensive pyro or dwarf or flagcarrier, but even then, if a swapper reaches you that close to accurately swap, then that's just your roaming defense ninja's fault?
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Also, as you may have noticed in-game from some staff members, if Scout had a potion that could deliver a splash effect to disorient and even deal damage, so a damage-confusion pot, then that'd help Scout a lot when put into tough situations as I mentioned above swapping into an enemy flagroom, just to provide little extra cushion to escape and/or deal damage before death––to help compliment the swapping ability.
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Furthermore, regarding the death tag (I agree with @BrandinoB that a short-range little beam/tomahawk would work better), I do think it is compatible in some sense to the swapper, as it can swap any player out (like a medic, or especially if it misses the flagcarrier for example) and then add the damage multiplier to the flagcarrier or whoever. I dont think the "massive amounts of damage" should be coming from the Scout, so a sword nerf might be a better additional fit to these tweaks––esp since it can rely so much on void killing and displacement of targets.
– Going off of that, I also strongly believe the death tag should be able to be restored in some way other than by medic or by respawning. I think it should act exactly like assassin's redstone where you can regain death tag after any player is killed or after 20 seconds (not after respawning––as is also the case for assassin). But, you shouldn't be able to get the death tag back if it's currently active on a player.
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– Minor point, going off of @obikenobi21 , I'd remove 100% fall damage but still give it the "damage" tick––so it's not as mobile as soldier, but it has same capabilities for dem mlg swaps off the belltower with no reason to reconsider.


LOVING the feedback and comments! Lets keep it going!
(also @ the other new/rework class ideas too)

 

Engineer Suggestion:

Grenade Launcher: Give engineer two charges of grenades, each one regenerating at the current rate (or perhaps with the cooldown slightly increased). This way, Engie has an upfront burst that heavily punishes stationary/camping people (or anyone it hits for that matter). 8 hearts of true damage with literally anything else will obliterate somebody (if hit properly).

*As far as the mechanics of the grenades, I think they're actually fairly easy to hit when people are just charging at you. The radius is huge, and you can just drop them down, it just takes a bit of practice. An enemy who is prepared could dodge them however, and I think thats the kind of counterplay it should have

Speed Pad and Healing Totem: Make them ranged projectiles that have a splash potion effect when hit. Engie can still use them on itself, but it can also launch it at allies from grenade range. This would have some cooldown. Basically like its grenades but with positive effects for the team (think like a long range mage healing spell for example).


Also, I think @scapezar suggesting the double jump is brilliant, and makes a great addition to Scout. It won't even need fall damage reduction if its added since Scout should be able to double jump just before hitting the ground.