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Idea "Enchanting" Dwarf Tweaks

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by Cardonation, Jul 21, 2019.

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  1. Cardonation

    Cardonation CTF JMOD | CMS Leader

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    This is a rework suggestion I thought of for Dwarf. Numbers and stats can vary; all numbers used in this rework are estimates of what would be fair and balanced.

    Dwarf
    First and foremost... no more permanent Slowness!


    Armor:
    No Helmet
    Diamond Chestplate
    Diamond Leggings
    Chainmail Boots


    Slot 1: Iron Axe w/ Sharpness I (Dwarf Axe)
    Slot 2: Steak (3)
    Slots 3-5: Enchantment Books
    Slot 8-9: Compass and Class Selector


    Dwarf Axe
    The ancient metal axe of the Dwarf is the weapon of choice. When a Dwarf right clicks their axe, it will be thrown in the direction they are looking in an arc.
    -The thrown axe does damage equal to a melee attack from the Dwarf Axe
    -When thrown, the Dwarf will lose the axe from the inventory until it returns
    -The axe will bounce back towards the Dwarf automatically after hitting a wall or another player (it will take longer to return if the axe is thrown into the void)
    -A slight 2ish second cooldown before the axe can be thrown again


    Enchantment Pool
    The main idea of this rework is to keep the enchantment factor that Dwarf has always had while making the class more mobile and viable. The key role is still defense, but this also allows Dwarf to do more if need be.
    -Dwarf will gain a small number of experience points to fill its experience bar whenever it receives or gives melee damage
    -The bar also charges at a moderate rate while the Dwarf is crouching and holding its Axe (about 8ish seconds for a full charge)
    -The Dwarf can use the exp bar to apply enchantments to its armor and its ancient Axe in order to become stronger
    -While an enchant is active, the Dwarf cannot charge the EXP bar in any way
    -Multiple enchants cannot be applied at the same time
    -Each enchant lasts about 6-9 seconds
    -Enchantments cannot be applied if the Axe isn't in the inventory (recently thrown)


    Out of these Enchantment Books, 3 should be used:

    Sharpness
    -Requires 75% of the EXP bar
    -Applied to the Axe; for a short time, the axe will be raised to Sharpness V, increasing damage on both the Axe melee and throwing attacks

    Knockback
    -Requires 40% of the EXP bar
    -Applied to the Axe; the next attack from the Dwarf will knock back the target a significant distance (this includes both the melee and throwing attacks)

    Protection
    -Requires 60% of the EXP bar
    -Applied to the Armor; gives Slowness effect and a certain degree of Protection to the Dwarf's Armor for a short time; this enchant will endure 1 Assassinate (enchantment fades upon attempted assassination)
    -Disabled while carrying a flag

    Fire Aspect
    -Requires 90% of the EXP bar
    -Applied to the Axe; when the Axe is right clicked during the short period of time this enchant remains, the Dwarf will charge forward in flames. Impact with an enemy player stops the charge and deals 6 hearts of true damage, along with burning them for 3 fire ticks
    -During the charge, Dwarf takes no knockback
    -The charge is affected by gravity, so you cannot air dash with it

    Looting
    -Requires 40% of the EXP bar
    -Applied to the Axe; while active, the next player you kill will allow you to loot 1 steak off of them (you cannot go above 3 steak)
    -If you kill a flag carrier while this is active, the flag will automatically be recovered regardless of touching it


    Now for the drawback...
    -Dwarf does not find lightning friendly; when attacked by a mage's Lightning Spell, Dwarf will lose any currently applied enchantments and the EXP bar will be drained
    -Mage also doesn't melee attack, meaning it will be difficult for a Dwarf to gain EXP against it


    Criticism and additional thoughts are very much encouraged. :smile:
     
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    #1 Cardonation, Jul 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  2. PastelVox

    PastelVox Active Member

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    I like the idea!

    A bit of a concern about the axe-throwing mechanic is that if you're near a target, you'll be able to have some very powerful extra damage just by throwing your axe and immediately attacking. Even though there's a cooldown on throwing the axe, you would end up getting double the damage every 2 seconds (or whatever the interval may be). Much more importantly, you get a really good combo tool (a projectile) that does a ton of damage if you've enchanted the axe.
    What's the result?
    Simply put, some incredibly potent (and possibly broken) burst damage.
    Dwarf's sharpness V enchantment gives it the highest damage in the game, excepting true damage and instakills. The enchantment is temporary, but I'm not sure how much it matters if all you're doing is bursting someone down with a combo (not to mention buffs).
    Not only is the weapon better than the ninja sword, but it also comes with the combo tool of throwing your axe (basically a ninja egg on cooldown that deals the axe's damage). On top of that, dwarf has 3 steak and some considerable armor, and can be paired with a scout death tag for a lot of damage all at once
    The simplest thing you can do is cut the dwarf's axe throw damage, but that essentially takes away its use as a long-range threat.
    I think maybe it'd be cool to have dwarf have a "wind-up" for the throw. During that time, maybe you can throw it further further (like an arrow), or have it do more damage (again, like an arrow). Either way, though, that definitely cuts into the power of the class, as it's an objective nerf. What I'd suggest is tweaking the axe throw so that it's less potent in a combo, but just as (or possibly even more) potent otherwise.

    Edit: A cool idea would be to maintain dwarf's inability to sprint. This would help to mitigate the concerns I had above, in addition to maintaining the idea of dwarf as more of a "stocky" class. In return, maybe give it Speed I to balance out the inability to sprint (as well as to give it some depth with "rejecting" chemist buffs).

    Sorry for the long response! I do this a lot, so please don't think I'm trying to tear you to shreds or anything.
     
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  3. Islendingur

    Islendingur Bunny

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    instead of protection enchant i would have a sword instead. dwarf is already weak to assassins, using a book takes more time than to block, which is a disadvantage. otherwise i would not limit the protection book when carrying a flag, it would be almost impossible for the dwarf to escape an assassination
     
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  4. Cardonation

    Cardonation CTF JMOD | CMS Leader

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    Thank you for your feedback! I do agree that the Sharpness will allow Dwarf to blitz things down, which was part of the point to help keep old Dwarf living on in new Dwarf. I do think it could be too much damage that way, and I like the "wind up" idea (maybe have the axe return at a set speed if you throw it within 8 blocks or so to prevent too much dmg from coming off?) Removal of sprint is a bit risky, as it becomes much easier for most other classes to avoid Dwarf and cause it to heavily rely on throwing the Axe, but it could also be a solution nevertheless o:

    I was thinking about a Sword, but I honestly prefer the switch to the Axe for a couple reasons:
    1. Throwing an Axe seems more fit
    2. I wanted to make sure Heavy and Dwarf had enough differences so that Dwarf wouldn't completely outclass it with the abilities it has in this rework

    Regardless of both of those things, you make a really good point and it could be nice if Dwarf was given a "dagger" (golden or wooden sword?) for the soul purpose of blocking, especially if the protection book isn't even used in the desired lineup of enchants.
     
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  5. SoCool21

    SoCool21 Bans Reports & Appeals Admin | McPvPer for Life <3

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    Interesting concept and definitely an improvement on current Dwarf, but I think it needs some tweaks before I'd want to see it in the game.

    Dwarf is currently supposed to be a defensive tank class. It has good armour, a very good sword, decent health pool, poor mobility, and not really any abilities (other than "a very good sword"). I'm not sure exactly what your intent was, but with this rework, the abilities are designed to be put on a tanky class, but the actual gear the class has doesn't allow it to be a tanky class. The overall result of this combination will be a class which isn't very powerful, and will be underused.

    I have a few issues with this. 8 seconds isn't really that long of a time for a defensive class, and Dwarf will easily be able to charge up it's XP bar between capture attempts, making the XP gain from melee damage not very useful. As well as this, it encourages Dwarf to camp in the flagroom - this is something I'm completely against, because I think CTF should move away from fights happening in the flagroom and rather have more fights out in the rest of the map (typically, getting out of the flag room and some way across the map is more interesting for both offence and defence). As such, I think the bar charging while crouching should be removed.

    This links back to what I said earlier. The XP gain on melee damage is the kind of ability you'd expect to see in a tanky class, and this melee XP gain is the base of this rework's only ability, so it is important we get this right.

    All of these are the kind of gear you wouldn't normally see from a tanky class.

    The armour is definitely above average, but for a tanky class, it isn't anything great (especially when compared to Heavy). It also doesn't have much steak (the exact same amount as Heavy). The iron axe makes Assassin a hard-counter, so a class with abilities seemingly designed for a tanky class is hard-countered by something which will instantly kill it.

    So, the only ability is partly activated by taking melee damage, but the class isn't going to be very good at taking melee damage. Thus, the ability is going to be very weak, and this will cause the class as a whole to be very weak. For the ability to work, the gear will need to be buffed.

    Another (and my last) major issue with this rework is the hard-counters as a whole. With an axe, this rework will be hard-countered by assassin. Hard-counters are never good unless there's a very important justification for it - countering a class should require some level of skill or strategy from the player, it should not be coded in to the game for them. While Dwarf does have the protection ability, assassin would simply need to hit dwarf twice instead of once.

    There are some other things I want to point out, as well:
    I don't think this is strong enough for it to be considered a hard-counter, however I don't think this rework's relationship with Mage is very well designed. A Mage would require minimal skill to counter this rework - simply use a lightning spell.

    One of the biggest issues with offence right now (and in the last 4 years) is the flag pickup delay. Back in McPvP, you would be able to pick up the flag almost instantly when you stand next to it (unless you were ninja) - this is no longer the case. Knockback is the bane of offence - if the defence collectively is able to deal about a block of knockback per second to an offensive player trying to pick up the flag, you'll be able to stop them. Having knockback on a defensive class would further this issue.

    Axe throwing feels like the kind of ability that should be in a recovery class, not a defensive class.

    I like the idea of this, but activating this ability seems a bit weird and unintuitive. Abilities like this should be 1 click to activate - not having to hotkey to an item, right click it, hotkey back to the axe, then right click it.

    I really like this idea. My ideal version of dwarf would be a tanky class which sustains itself by going berserk and dealing/taking a lot of damage all at once - but when the player isn't going berserk, it's weak. This idea suits that kind of design quite a lot. The only issue is now, kill stealing would be an issue. Only a slight change is needed - Dwarf would get an extra steak by doing significant damage to someone who dies.
     
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  6. Dequoy

    Dequoy Active Member

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    I like the idea overall (especially like having an axe instead of a sword - since vanilla Minecraft doesn't have any warhammers, ha ha). There is a note regarding "enduring an assassination attempt" though. If a Dwarf has this enchantment active, and an Assassin rushes in from behind, they swing once...the enchantment goes away...and then the very same Assassin swings a second time almost immediately after. The second swing registers and the Dwarf is sent back to spawn (probably before latency/lag even lets the Dwarf player know about that first assassination swing).

    Perhaps instead, being attacked with an attempted assassination can force the enchantment timer to be set to the length of time that an Assassin's strength is insane. Granted, even though this would usually decrease the Dwarf enchantment's timer it would have the potential to extend the length of the enchantment a bit if it was nearly expired and an Assassin rushes in (just so that it ensures that the Dwarf is protected from the entire length of the assassination attempt -- or for 1 or 2 seconds of it if that is preferred instead to protect the Dwarf for a moment to react while still giving the Assassin a fair chance).

    I really like the axe throwing idea! When I suggested a Dwarf rework I suggested allowing the Dwarf to smack their axe (I suggested the same type of weapon, heh) against an enemy or a wall to knock themselves backward (much like an Elf can when using their "air-rows")...but being able to throw an axe for some ranged damage rather than using a knockback to leap toward someone to close the gap is helpful in more situations (such as attacking a soldier up high on a perch).

    Regarding the thrown axe, what if the axe is gone no matter what for 1.5-2.0 seconds or so when thrown? It won't be lost long term in the void this way, and it wouldn't be able to be abused with crazy damage output between tosses and swings if they all happen to hit. It would ONLY vanish for that time if the Dwarf chooses to throw it so it's not really any kind of nerf, and it wouldn't be able to have the crazy range of arrows (so bows would retain that advantage at range since most bows are no better than punches when they're swung in melee).
     
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    #6 Dequoy, Jul 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
  7. EmperorTrump45

    EmperorTrump45 Dank Memer

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    yo waddup gay ***got here with another rework review

    Well Dwarf chose a pretty sh*t weapon since it has lower attack speed and damage than an iron sword and is useless af against assassins. but I guess Dwarves can't use swords since Gimli never used one in Lord of the Rings

    lol

    why the f*ck would I play this when I could play Mage? Or Archer? Or Chemist? Or Engineer? Or Elf? Or literally any class with projectiles that do damage?

    Axe damage is 2.5 full hearts, same as a stone sword. that's lower damage than any of the damage from all of the projectiles from any of the aforementioned classes. So there's that. And then there's this random cooldown that half the classes listed don't even have (Mage does but the cd on damage spell is short af) in addition to a penalty where Dwarf is basically turned into an NPC for 2 seconds if he (I know this is silly) actually hits his ability. This is even worse if Dwarf hits the wrong target, which is completely possible since you're throwing a f*cking axe, not shooting an arrow (elf, archer), a long ranged projectile (mage), throwing an AoE potion (chemist), or an AoE explosive (Engineer).

    And what difference does 2.5 hearts make anyway?

    Also why does it bounce back to Dwarf instead of just instantly returning to his inventory?

    This reminds me of Mundo Q from LoL except it doesn't slow, does flat damage instead of % health (less damage), and prevents Dwarf from using his axe while it's on cooldown (not the case with Mundo).

    Ah. I see the toxic snowball mechanic is still there

    Why do Dwarves like to crouch so god damn much? Are they constipated? They got prostate cancer? Or do they just hate walking? No, not SNEAKING, walking.

    Like you'd think a rework would remove the PUT A STAPLER ON THE SHIFT KEY Dwarf playstyle (which, coincidentally, happens to be the only Dwarf playstyle). I know, I too, have been stocking up on snowglobes to place on my SHIFT KEY when I need to take a sh*t or when I just don't want to hold down that goddamn key any longer for 10 motherf*cking levels but it's become a bit of a nuisance know what I'm saying?

    Seriously though, can we please think of a different way to incorporate this other than turning CTF into Shift Smash Simulator?


    Every Assassin main is laughing their ass off right now.

    So a nerf to current Dwarf, basically

    Another nerf to current Dwarf

    Wow another nerf

    Dude, how many nerfs did you add?

    Ranged axe mechanic is somewhat interesting/cool. That said, it's still a weak mechanic since it (basically) uses your entire xp bar, does mediocre damage (comparable to Chemist damage/poison pots, Elf pure element, Engineer TNT). Still weaker than Archer headshot, and underwhelming compared to Mage damage spell (which can be cast from longer range and with way higher dps). Also does the axe do bonus damage, say sharpness I-IV, if you charge up to 75% of the xp bar but no more?

    Define "significant". Knockback 1, 2, 3...?

    What is the degree of protection?

    Also the assassinate thing could be removed by adding a sword.

    Wdym by charge? Does Dwarf dash? Does he like, pull an Enderman and teleport on enemies? Or does he gain a brief, rapid speed boost to gapclose? Can he control the direction of the dash to any extent or is it literally a dash forward? Does this apply to multiple people (like a Sion ult) or only one dude? And 3 fire ticks is 1.5 hearts of true damage right? How far does he dash/charge/whatever? What happens if he collides with terrain?

    This would be good if Dwarf had any way of reliably killing people except, wait, he's got a useless f*cking iron axe. Wait, Dwarf also has that neat XP bar thingamadoo that gives him Sharpness 5. But wait, that requires a f*ckton of f*cking XP so he can't use that either. But what about the fire true damage thing? Nope can't use that either because it requires even more XP.

    Can we rename this rework Dwarf - XP Hunter?

    Why does Dwarf need more things that drain his XP bar? Isn't 4 enough?

    legit this class eats more XP than a fat dude eats burgers at McDonald's.


    Sure. Since I love Dwarf (it's stupid, but fun) and he's one of the two classes I actually play (the other being Necro. only class one can play without a keyboard) because you just f*ckin place an object on the keyboard, yeet out of spawn, and beat the sh*t out of everyone with your Sharp 10, Fire Aspect 3, Knockback whatever diamond sword.

    What you have done is created a rework that, personally, I would hate playing.

    Summary:

    You've got this class with the same armor as soldier (7.5 each) but with lousy damage and no sustain. The only thing Dwarf's got going for him is that burst from the true damage/fire or sharpness V except he can't combo it because you literally say you can't combo it in the rework. Maybe that'd be OP if you could, idk, it's whatever.

    The stupid shift key mechanic is the biggest issue with this rework. Like who tf wants to randomly sneak and charge xp while they're fighting Kenny K? It's not cohesive to combat and becomes even more terrible if you're in an open area - which could be a lot depending on the map - or if you're low health and need to yeet outta there like Lightning McQueen. This also, somewhat, defeats the purpose of removing Dwarf's slowness and allowing it to sprint

    Note: I didn't see that the xp bar charges when you take damage (or deal damage). That makes this rework slightly less terrible except it's still bad because this Dwarf is roughly - maybe less - tanky than Soldier (1 less steak).

    You said 'slight amount of xp' and since a 'moderate rate' is 8 seconds this makes me think that it's going to be f*ckin 2020 by the time big boi Dwarf charges his hot rod. And even then you can only tank so much while dealing low damage so you're still going to be fairly dependent on sneaking or whatever for that xp

    the need from xp comes from your damaging abilities taking up a crapload of the xp bar (75% and 90% respectively)

    Also I've been like, rude af so let me say I do like the idea behind this rework, the more I think about it. See that word? "Like"? Yeah I didn't think I'd say it either.

    It's cool how you've basically combined Dwarf's current functions into separate abilities and the axe throw mechanic gives Dwarf some interesting playmaking and recovery potential. The removal of slowness is also a +1 and the ability to steal steaks is fun and could potentially give Dwarf a lot of suitability.

    Tbh if you just gave Dwarf a sword (while keeping the axe and it's mechanic), maybe a little more armor (or keep it the same it doesn't really matter), and gave it a way to rapidly regenerate xp in and out of fights then this would be hilariously fun to play. And by "some way" I'd strongly suggest removing the sneaking and making everything purely combat dependent (like a juggernaut). This could be done by greatly increasing the xp gained from dealing or taking damage and maybe buffing Dwarf's base tankiness a little. Also, in that case, it would make sense to nerf the damage since you could constantly switch between Dwarf's abilities thereby being able to 'combo' them to a certain extent. It'd resemble an Udyr-esque class in that case, minus the insane speed boosts.

    love and waffles uwu
     
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    #7 EmperorTrump45, Jul 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  8. Cardonation

    Cardonation CTF JMOD | CMS Leader

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    Thank you all for your feedback, it definitely helps draw a better picture of what should become of Dwarf. I'll reply to y'all later when I've got more time. :smiley:
     
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