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Idea Necro OP?

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by notfleb, Jan 18, 2020.

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  1. notfleb

    notfleb Well-Known Member

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    People have been complaining about Necro being too tanky and dealing too much damage. I believe this is true, and that Necro is currently the class with the highest potential damage output per life under Archer. Let's get started by assessing Necro's components to see just how powerful it actually is:

    Raw Health
    - Iron Helmet, Gold Chestplate, Iron Leggings, Iron Boots
    - 4 Steaks
    I want to say this is roughly equivalent to Heavy's health pool, but I could be wrong. The "lower" armor total does incline Necros to use their skulls for healing quite often, which can heavily sway one's lifespan depending on their first few fights.

    Secondary Healing
    - Wither Skull (up to 3 with a killstreak of 2 or more)
    This is where things get sketchy. Other classes such as Assassin also utilize a kill-to-heal ability, but there's one problem: they have significantly lower raw health pools. This would essentially be like giving heavy Wither Skulls; it makes an already tanky class exponentially harder to kill. I like the ability, but the raw health pool needs to be cut down severely if we don't want people doing /necro and getting 20 killstreaks.

    Primary Damage
    - Golden Sword [Sharpness II]
    Once again, nearly equal to Heavy's damage (6.5 vs 7.0). This becomes important in the next section.

    Secondary Damage
    - Wither Skull (Wither II effect for 5 seconds upon contact)
    Each skull will do at least 10hp (5 hearts) of damage if an enemy is within its radius, and more often then not they will get directly hit and receive fall damage. This means that after just 2 kills, a Necro is able to deal a bare minimum of 30hp of damage in the span of 15 seconds if timed correctly. Keep in mind that Necro without skulls is already nearly equal to Heavy in both primary damage and raw health.

    So at the end of it all, we essentially have a Heavy with the ability to simultaneously mow down enemies and healing for doing so. I guess a better comparison would be Heavy with assassinate, but it is quite different. I would go on and make my own rant about what should be done, but I haven't touched Necro since the first month it came out; I'll leave it to more frequent users to reply with their thoughts below.
     
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  2. EmperorTrump45

    EmperorTrump45 Dank Memer

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    :thinking:

    :chuckle:

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  3. auromelt

    auromelt CTF Mod ʕ •ᴥ•ʔ // TF Member

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    At least you can actually do things with Necro right now. Necro isn't even overpowered compared to other classes like chemist

    I'm personally glad with what they've done with Necro, it's a great rework and I think it should not be changed, at least not anytime soon.
     
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  4. ACE_BLUE2

    ACE_BLUE2 Sup'

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    Necro is op you say? Guess i'm gonna have to play it then
     
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  5. Mnkynoodles

    Mnkynoodles ur mother

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    necro is stronger than chem with 4 ks imo
     
  6. Foodcourt

    Foodcourt CTF MOD

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    I would agree wtih what Auro said above. Necro is in a place where you can still use it and it will be viable, but it simply is as not viable as other classes except for specific situations. For example (map dependent of course) I would say deciding to use Heavy or Soldier instead of Necro is a better play. However, it is also important to consider the composition the other team is running. If they are running bulkier classes, Necro probably is not the optimal play because Heavy can tank and deal more damage and Soldier has the mobility factor. Subsequently, using your wither skulls against a defensive heavy will cause them to take little to no knockback which makes you and your teammates incredibly susceptible to being cornered. Although, if a team is running a squishier composition of Ninjas or Assassins, Necro can be extremely useful due to the splash wither effect being able to help your teammates against opposing Ninjas. Necro thrives on its ability to get kills because more kills = more skulls which is what makes the class have an impact. You can make a valid argument for running Heavy or Soldier on any map against any composition, but for Necro that simply is not the case.

    From a defensive perspective, you can probably run the class in any given situation if you wanted to. The wither ability does a great job of stalling and its tankiness in general can help it survive for a longer period of time. Not to mention, revival tag on your teammates (especially defensive ninjas) can have a large impact on the game. These are all great points,
    but the counterargument is if using a Necro will help your team more than using a Heavy/Soldier or Ninja defender? I think that is an important question to consider when looking at the class because if the class is not deemed to be usable when compared to its counterparts, I think that shows flaw in its design. Going back to my posed question above, I do not think the class has been out long enough yet to make an accurate statement on it (but if you think you have an answer, I would love to hear it), but, if I was pressed to answer, I would say that I would rather have a Heavy/Soldier or Ninja than a Necro. Of course the answer changes when you bring specific players into the equation, but speaking in general terms and how each class functions, that would be my very basic answer (could probably develop it more when the class has more playtime overall).

    So, I still agree with Auro that it is useful, but the uses it has are relatively limited in the sense that it is situational based on what your team is up against and the map that you are playing on. Whereas Heavy/Soldier can be considered viable no matter what composition/map is being played, you cannot say the same with Necro. With that being said, I think Necro is underused as it stands right now in the META.
     
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  7. auromelt

    auromelt CTF Mod ʕ •ᴥ•ʔ // TF Member

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    Necro has less mobility than a chemist, plus does not have regeneration PLUS 12 or so absorption hearts gained from all three wither skulls at once is still less than chemist's 5 instant health pots. I can't name another class that can outheal THROUGH A PYRO FRENZY easier than chemist. But I think the damage output is more or less the same accounting for the wither damage and sword damage. I'd think Necro will be easier to burst enemies with compared to chemist.

    Honestly chemist is slightly more powerful based on the way that it is played in the META at the moment, which is on offense, which is EXTREMELY frustrating to deal with. REE

    I agree with Foodcourt, people haven't found a suitable place for Necro in the META yet and is underplayed in matches/PPMs for this exact reason. I think once people realise the potential of Necro and how best to play it, it will definitely be very strong.
     
  8. notfleb

    notfleb Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Every class will have its situational/map-bound advantages and disadvantages. However, as a primarily casual player, I have noticed over many months that experienced Necros will simply long on and get kill streaks in the 20s from scattered random enemies. Chemist has this same potential, but seldom will you see a Chemist successfully demolishing every class it encounters. Chemist's native health becomes problematic when fighting high DPS classes such as Ninja, Pyro (+ fire), buffed bulk, and Archers (bows). In many cases, even regeneration 3 is not enough to hold out on, making fights against said classes costly for hard healing. Necro on the other hand, when used tactically, can farm any number of Ninjas, Assassins, or other squishy classes by the dozens due to the power of the skull. All the Necro has to do is reach their 2 kill streak, then chain skulls to both damage the player and heal from the few hits it can get in before giving out. Necro skulls deal 5 hearts of Pure Damage because of the nature of the Wither effect, meaning a 2ks Necro can tear down bulk defense quite efficiently, albeit costly in health due to the constant damage that skulls can't make up for.

    Of course this my view from a casual standpoint, and we should try to be making classes as balanced as possible for the competitive arena, but I'm simply trying to make casual less of a nightmare for new/less skilled players. I believe that it is rapidly becoming a key hybrid slot for PPMs, and functions well in them; just trying to figure something out in terms of a compromise for the hundreds of players on the other side that rarely ever congregate into groups larger than four.
    It does need more observation in PPMs to be placed for competitive CTF, and who knows, maybe over time players will learn new strategies for taking out Necros without sacrificing their KDRs. I guess time will tell.
     
  9. bar1234

    bar1234 Well-Known Member

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    well i think that necro is broken to for example once i was a medic and i fought a necro and he always had his wither and i couldn't kill him i think you should the necro class.
     
  10. Mnkynoodles

    Mnkynoodles ur mother

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    depends on the killstreak of a necro, u shouldnt be fighting a necro either way unless theyre actyually a bot
     
  11. bar1234

    bar1234 Well-Known Member

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    but after they kill 1ninja or idk they litterly can win a heavy
     
  12. Mnkynoodles

    Mnkynoodles ur mother

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    No, if a heavy is decent at pvp they will weaken the necro enough to get it in one shot range
     
  13. Dequoy

    Dequoy Active Member

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    What I've enjoyed most about trying Necro was its ease of use. It did strike me as a powerful class, but I would say it's on par with Heavy more than being dramatically more powerful than Heavy. Not only does a Heavy wield a mildly more powerful sword, but they know that they will be swinging that all the time. They won't switch and lose their weapon's power meter cycle. For a Necro to switch to the skull and back, the weapon loses its power and the Necro could suffer another strike from a Heavy or other sword-wielding class to toss the chaotic skull (which can be a bit tricky to aim sometimes - especially against skilled strafing targets). A stocked Necro will have an advantage over a Heavy for sure, but early on and perhaps even with two skulls available the switching can spell tragedy for a skilled Necro against a skilled and determined charging Heavy.

    If Necro were to be nerfed at all, it may be as simple as scaling down the Necro armor a bit. In a pinch they could keep a skull handy for a self heal/wither threat from a surprise Ninja, and if a sneaky tankier class charges in the Necro could always buy time keeping a distance and running off for a moment while they wait for the skull to replenish. Having a bit less armor wouldn't destroy the class, but it would certainly slow its progress down dramatically.
     
  14. Crashable

    Crashable Crashable

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    I have noticed it is quite good for multi person fights, but i would not classify it as "OP". It is in a far better place than it was in 2016 and 2017. At the moment i feel all classes are balanced but may have some individual issues with some uses being exploited further than what it is meant for.
    Quality Thread.
     
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