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Early morning thoughts

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by Greenfoot5, May 10, 2020.

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  1. Greenfoot5

    Greenfoot5 Member

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    Ok, this is going to be long. I also wrote this at 1:10AM so.... it may not be written the best. But this is my take on CTF. It's also aimed at increasing retention rates for new players. Some of the stuff here assumes you don't have all the classes and still want credits ect.

    P.S. I'm strictly avoiding all discussion about class balance/map balance. I'm assuming I can't change anything about the classes or maps. It's just too much to consider.

    I used to play a bit in the MCCTF days, I have only ever played casual. Until about 3 weeks ago when I joined the discord and started playing some PPMs. I also read a bit on the forums. I could sum it up quickly. "Staff bad/biased", "So and so shouldn't have been banned", "So and so is breaking the rules depends on how you read them and should be banned". Oh, and ofc, "ctf is dying".

    Every game has players who are vocal about certain things, hate certain mechanics. And if you always listen to your players, your game will never be different or unique. Also, CTF isn't dying. It's just not growing. I have yet to see a day where 2 servers are full. I've seen about 1.5 full, and that was it.

    The problems

    Offensive play is not rewarding. (Unless you actually cap)

    Now, I played offence in a ppm for the first time recently. I don't even play offence in casual. Why? Because I don't want to, I don't find it enjoyable and there's no reward. Would I find it rewarding if I was good at it? Maybe. But I don't have any motivation to improve because it's not enjoyable or fun currently.

    The difficulty curve
    The difficulty curve, a new player, who can't pvp, will die, and die and die. It's boring for both parties involved. It's not fun. I can stop a play session of an experienced player, and stop a new player from joining the community.

    I don't play with friends
    Before there are jokes about how I don't have friends, I do, because I play bedwars with them. That is a game that encourages you to play with friends. There's nothing here encouraging group play (casual specifically).

    Class availability.
    If you're new you have access to four classes. Three of which offer the same basic action. Hit as fast as you can on the enemy. You get one unique class, the archer. In a game where there's so many people playing different classes, it's hard to compete and enjoy the game. Archer is the only class that offers truly different gameplay, and it's pvp action you can get anywhere else.

    Team visibility/Mercs
    I'll explain this in the paragraph.

    So, what can be done?

    Offensive Play
    This one's probably the easiest to consider a solution for. You have to reward the player for trying. Problem solved? No. It's more than that. You could buff the cap credit count, but that only goes to one player, and only if they manage to reach the flag. There also aren't any other distinct events you could grant bonuses for. Here's some of my solutions:
    Make kills seem like an achievement in themselves. Specifically defender kills. A defender can be someone within x blocks of the flag. But each kill pops up in the chat, with 2 credits. As a new player, that's nothing. In bedwars, that person is reset back to their spawn, with a cooldown. In CTF, that means nothing as there's always other players. In Survivial games, you kill a player, they're out. There's nothing special when killing a player. A small bonus could be a slight buff to a player. For example, 3 seconds of speed (a level above what the player currently has) meaning they have a chance to back off. This is a direct counter to ninja though so the effect may need to be thought through a little more. Could also grant 2 absorbtion hearts for 5 seconds. A short effect, won't mean that after a fight, but means that little bonus and makes it extra special. To make this fair, you could make it available to all players.

    Difficulty Curve
    In many games, there's something to help players when they're losing. In Battlefield 1, it was the blimp, modern warfare has the death streaks. Both something that could turn the tide in your favour. It doesn't have to be massive. But it could also help against the complaints of spawn camping (Check the forum). A small buff could be something like 1/5 of a resistance effect. Various effects could be added when you reach certain death streak milestones. The death streak would be reset (and all buffs removed) when you gain a kill. If you wanted to milk the playerbase, you could make them purchasable with credits and allow you to pick and choose, but I would not advise that at all. It means even more is locked off to new players, and the death streak is designed to help new players. Older players shouldn't go on a death streak (except perhaps a ninja/assassin having a bad day).
    Also, I've faced a few players now, who haven't used steak. It's not clear that you don't have to eat it, nor that it increases health. Perhaps a warning in chat when people get down to three hearts if they haven't used it, or if they die, and haven't used much of their steak (bar instakills) they get a little notice (and notification sound) reminding them that they can eat steak to heal.


    Subnote, perhaps don't allow people to pick the server. Organise it for them. This would allow you to creates two matches of smaller size (meaning that each kill is more important, and there are fewer defenders, also meaning server sizes could be reduced) and also means that more games go on at once. You can then also group be an estimation of a players ability (using redslime's stats) meaning newer players don't play against players who have a main class and play competitively in teams. Meaning it's fairer. At the end of the match, it also means you could split people up, based on difficult and also make smaller casual matches. However, it would keep parties/squads(explained below) together and allow you to join a friend.

    I don't play with friends.
    I've brought up me playing ctf a lot, but nobody does ever play. I also never massively encourage them to play. Why?
    Part of it is class availability (next point), and the difficulty curve, but there's also no benefits. Perhaps we can get a cap, but then what? Parties mean very little. And teams are far too big. You need something like squads or mini groups to play with. Perhaps you could make squads of up to 5 players, and you get a boost of some such when you're playing the same game? Credits are the obvious thing, but I feel it's got to be something different. A really cool (but probably not money making) would be to allow squads/parties to play classes that someone else has unlocked, but isn't using. For example, if I own assassin and ninja, I can play ninja and someone else in my squad/party could play assassin. It would help with the next point.

    Class availability.
    Now, this is probably going to be the least likely to happen since it goes against money making system put in place by Brawl to keep the servers running. But, I'm going to throw them out there. It could even make people like stuff and buy more.
    The three of the four classes are very similar in gameplay style. So, we could offer more classes. Perhaps a weekly rotation, like in certain mobas, where in casual play, groups (or in this case) just one class is unlocked. I'd still love free Friday to be a thing, but this means that you get a chance to get better at a class, improve over the week, and try something new. It also means that if you've bored, why not try out the free class and see how well you can do?
    Class trials. Allow players to earn/buy classes for a day or a week. Nice and cheap, giving them a chance to play with friends or try something new. You could even make a 100 ctf credit purchase for 1 hour of a random premium class. Day or week passes for a certain class could also be donated, meaning friends with all the classes can spend some tokens, and give a friend a class for the day to play with them. They still shouldn't be able to purchase permanent classes for them.
    The final thing you could do is allow a scaling for class purchases. This means unlocking your final class could cost 100,000 ctf credits, but unlocking your first, a mere 1,000 (Both a little extreme, but you get the idea). Discounts could also be offered credit wise, but I don't know the benefits this could bring.

    Team Visibility/Mercs
    Prior to reading this discord, I didn't really know about teams, nor who was on them. I'd propose a little thing before someone's name like [AF] or [TB]. This makes me curious to what it means, but also provides me with info about who's in what team. I know it's yet another thing in front of someones name. But it inspires team loyalty, and is also free advertising for teams. This is the only Minecraft server I know of that actually has a competitive side. Yes, some have tournaments, but few have proper teams and organise matches. It's your time to shine.

    I'm new to the understanding of mercs and have not yet been in a team, so this may come off as naive. But, I'll say it anyway. Imo, mercs shouldn't be a thing. 1st, there's less loyalty to a team, and for me, reduces the meaning of the team. It also makes it harder to see who's where. Daveeeeeeeee is on AF, but he's also a merc on many other teams (or at least applied) and I just found it all a little confusing. But there are two reasons I've got.
    1. Social things, play with your friends. A private match with some of your mates against someone else's mates. This is nice enough to see, but I don't see why it has to involve teams at all.
    2. Used as subs. This is actually a fair reason, other than just having game subs, but then that would just make teams function worse.

    So, what to do about it? Only allow a person to merc for two teams maximum. This increases team loyalty, and makes it much easier to understand. Teams become much more distinct and it's more manageable and easier for people to understand what's happening. Overall, I don't like the who merc thing, but that's my opinion and I don't have a good enough reason for them to be removed.

    Thanks
    Congrats if you read all that. There's no tl;dr, partly because I feel you need to read it all to get it, partly because it's now 2:37AM and I need sleep. I don't have massive experience here, but hopefully at least some of this is useful. If you don't like something, or think something shouldn't happen, include why.

    P.S. this is 10404 characters!
     
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  2. Raging_

    Raging_ Well-Known Member

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    yuh
     
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  3. ProfessorPilates

    ProfessorPilates Well-Known Member

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    ayyy
     
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  4. Foodcourt

    Foodcourt CTF MOD

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    Definitely agree with you here. Attempting to play offense in casual is little to no fun for me personally, and offensive players that I am close with agree. For competitive, however, I think it is a little more enjoyable. Since there is structure and limits in place for competitive play, coordination is much easier and I do enjoy it much more.

    The difficulty curve is something I find to be an issue as well. It would probably take people a few weeks to get familiar with casual gameplay and class mechanics, and then even more time on top of it to understand PPMs and the competitive side to CTF. Developing things such as game sense and the mechanics of the game undoubtedly take time. The way to fix this is to, although easier said than done, offer assistance and help to newer players to help their transition become easier.

    I am probably unfit to talk about playing with friends because I had a sibling to play the game with me and we figured it out together, which is probably a big part of why I decided to dedicate time to understanding the game. I have, recently, brought a few people from other servers to try out the gamemode and, although surely confused, have an easier time getting used to it with having me there. I do think, however, that there is things encouraging about CTF. Learning something new in general is fun, especially if the gamemode you are used to is getting stale, and if you will have friends there with you

    The idea of unlocking every class is daunting. However, I do not think they are a major issue. Free-Play Fridays give a lot of players a chance to experiment with the class they like and then eventually buy it using credits. Because the first class purchase is only a few thousand credits, a player can achieve this rather quickly if they remain dedicated. Then, they can enjoy that particular class until they can afford another, and the process repeats itself.

    Agree. If prefixes were placed in front of people's names, many would ask what it means and then they would be introduced to the team scene. In turn, more people would want to get involved in competitive CTF.

    I actually like the mercenary system, and I do not think being a merc on any team is disloyal to the team you are a member on. I do agree that it is confusing to understand the difference between member and merc. You can be member for only one team, but you can be a merc for as many as you like. Although none have happened in awhile, unofficial matches are a common place where mercenaries come into play, as you can play for a team you are not a member of in an unofficial match. I also think the mercenary system is healthy as it allows team discords to be more social and engage in conversation; also because you get a break from playing with just your team members, playing with different people in a competitive setting is enjoyable and refreshing at times.

     
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  5. Daveeeeeeeee

    Daveeeeeeeee Well-Known Member

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    I will probably reply in more detail later but I saw you used me as the example for the mercenary thing. As Foodcourt explained mercenaries aren’t actually able to play official matches for other teams including tournament ones, they can only really participate in unofficials which haven’t happened in a while. However, I personally like being mercenary for different teams because it allows me to meet different groups of players and interact with other aspects of the community, hence why I apply to merc for quite a few teams.
     
  6. Lceman502

    Lceman502 Active Member

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    yessir
     
  7. notfleb

    notfleb Well-Known Member

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    Trying to play the game objectively in a large casual server is near pointless unless your team is actually supporting you. You will have 3 ninjas sins archers etc. eyeing (and half the time targeting) you the entire match because half the playerbase still doesn't know how to play objectively, and the same story applies when the 1 medic on your team is sprintless walking past you every time you ask for a heal. The current grind for getting classes is honestly not hard - literally just play defensive medic and you can rack up 200+ credits a map easily (on big / productive servers). Classes that are "balanced" in organized matches are only "OP" in casual because they have nothing stopping them if they're decent at pvp; Even with my subpar skill and hotspot internet I've pulled several 20+ killstreaks with classes like Mage and Pyro, which both get immediately killed in offensive positions in organized matches. CTF won't function like PPMs do until the players know what the **** they're doing, which calls for a more direct and immediately available guide for them to read - did that opportunity fly over the staff team when they made an entire separate lobby for CTF, or is it just stashed away miles deep in the Trello like everything else?

    There is one true philosophy to casual CTF: "If I don't know you (**** it, if I just dislike you), I will probably target or farm you indefinitely until staff or some other reg(s) give me a reason not to." The difficulty curve, as with anything, will always exist in part due to to skill and experience levels - but the community also just happens to be incredibly shady and scummy in some areas. The team scene is what fuels this community, and what keeps it the same despite staff trying to make several changes - everybody fights the same 200 people every month and they tell jokes in between, with some added scumming and abandoning of a few people who the core groups get tired of. I gave the staff thing a chance just to see if I was missing something, but I learned after about 3 days that I had been right the entire time.

    This has literally been the case since I started playing. Good to see someone here has an IQ.
     
  8. Ubau

    Ubau Member

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    I personally feel like offense is really rewarding. It’s the hardest position in a match, especially in competitive ctf. It does take awhile to cap but the feeling of capping on some of the best players in the game is rewarding to me.
     
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  9. 666zarpin_simp

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    .
     
    #9 666zarpin_simp, May 17, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  10. Greenfoot5

    Greenfoot5 Member

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    Been 9 days since I wrote this. Guess I should reply to a few things.

    Mercs
    At the time or writing, having never been in a team, and only skimming over the team forums, I didn't understand it, and I do more so now. I can see why they're a thing and why people sign up to be mercs for teams. Sorry for using you as example Daveeeee, but you were the one that I came up with at the time.

    Friends
    I'm clearly on my own on this one. It could just be that I'm not pushy enough, or they spend too much time sweating on bedwars.

    Credits
    Now that I've started playing more daily due to COVID, and I have begun playing in PPMs, I have earnt credits so much faster. Most of my thoughts on slower credit gain is from me playing casual perhaps one a week, and not being very good at PVP, or playing tactically. It meant that I didn't see the full picture for the community. I also don't have access to any stats, so my credit gain perception was based entirely on my own experiences.

    However
    I would like to clarify, most of what I was saying was based on a handful on PPMs I'd played recently, and some long experience of casual. Again, I can see the stats, so I don't know how many regular players there are that don't have a forum account linked. I don't know how many players aren't in the community discord, or just play casual. Some of this was written about being friendlier to brand new players.

    Replies
    I'm just gonna respond to quotes here.

    This is something that is hard to change. Many games can do it by forcing players to play a tutorial, but given Brawl doesn't know the quality of the player when they first joined, it's hard to force them into a tutorial. Instead, I'd go for something different:
    Players must join the ctf lobby before playing ctf. Yes, a little annoying, but most servers do it when asking you to pick a gamemode or a server in that gamemode.
    New players (This means they haven't got a playtime greater than 5 mins) will then receive a chat notification, telling them there's a lobby tutorial. This are is just a simple place, perhaps holograms or signs, telling users the basics about a class, some "suggested" counters? But also some tips on capping or defending. Perhaps also include a classes "suggested" role. It's not much, but it can go a long way to new players. It could also pop-up in chat if people are on a death-streak.

    I'm trying to avoid the whole community attitude on this thread. There are plenty of others talking about this. I believe the teams really help the game, and perhaps the staff could do more to promote this as a properly competitive game (the stuff in the lobby is great btw), but I played casual for ages, never got involved in the community much. But then again, I could be an exception.

    This is the most unique and different CTF server I've played on. People argue it's similar to Capture the Wool or that Cowboys and Indians game on The Hive. It's not. I'm not going to explain it all. You can play Hypixel's new Capture the Wool game and see the very clear difference in the games. This is the only gamemode I still play that I used to play.



    I know I didn't quite make this clear in the beginning, and I've also never played with a proper offence part of a team, but the things I brought up were more about casual than anything else. You gotta play casual before you play the rest of the game.
     
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  11. notfleb

    notfleb Well-Known Member

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    This is the case for literally every server. MCPVP developed their CTF in the age where that wasn't a common practice yet, and for some reason Brawl hasn't implemented any real solid tutorial to the gamemode, nor does it have practical means of moderating efficiently enough to compensate for the lost "rules" said tutorial would offer. The chat tips are a good step forward, but there needs to be a very easy to find full-on tutorial in the CTF hub if they want any hope of reeling in new players that actually stay for more than a day.
     
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  12. Schokie

    Schokie Member

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    Lets make a Ctf Tutorial Forleb
     
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  13. GGGGG12

    GGGGG12 Member

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    I think most available offensive classes are hard to play and the rewards are kind of bad for that. One example is ninja. You don't have many lives and die soon , this makes it super hard to get kills. My idea would be to give different rewards for different examples. For example, ninja get's more coins for killing and less for caping. For that heavy gets more coins then ninja for caping, but less for getting a kill
     
  14. Greenfoot5

    Greenfoot5 Member

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    I feel like varying credits for different classes would make it far too complex, and is unlikely that devs would spend time on this. Normally, Ninja is used as a more defensive class anyway, not for getting kills, but dealing damage and distracting high value targets.
     
  15. GGGGG12

    GGGGG12 Member

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    still there should still be something that makes those hard playing classes rewardable
     
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