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Playing Offense in Casual

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by notfleb, May 31, 2020.

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  1. notfleb

    notfleb Well-Known Member

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    This may seem like just another rant, and while it is to some extent, this is also a small guide for the current situation players face when playing offense in casual.

    Map Diversity

    I thought I'd bring this up first because it plays a much larger role than most realize. The simple truth is that with every map wave, we get several reworks and/or continued version maps (II, III, IV, etc.); this isn't always a bad thing, but too much of it can cause problems. With general exceptions like Blackout and Lowrise, the community has been very vocal for some time about maps getting overused or brought back from the dead. This trend has been going on since I started playing here 6 years ago, but anyone who's played this server for even a year will tell you that they get tired of specific maps constantly being put back into rotation. My point is that basically every casual reg knows most (if not all) of these maps by heart, which means that we get bored of doing the same push strats over and over again, even with varying server sizes - which brings me to the next subject.

    Empty & Flooded Servers

    How do big servers function so well with staff teams that aren't much larger than Brawl's? Automation. Not just any kind of automation - full circle automation. On Hypixel, a bedwars 4s game needs 14 players to start, with varying timer count downs when the server has 14, 15, or 16 players. And what does that result in? Mostly balanced games. Yes I know "ur a ****ing retard for comparing ctf to bedwars" but the method itself is what needs attention. How do you expect games to be balanced with a 44 player interval between the server being too small and full? It's madness. The chances of finding a game where defense isn't overpowered or nonexistent are too low to even comprehend, and never mind the player skill gaps & cheaters.

    Class Limits and the Community

    PPMs and Team Matches utilize this, so why shouldn't casual? Because casual is a place for people to learn - whether it be maps, classes, or just pvp in general. Now, keeping in mind what I said in the last paragraph, how the hell do you expect any new players to figure **** out when the games are so lopsided? Play casual for 1 week and you'll have several games with literally 5+ archers and heavies sprintless walking into enemy spawns. Constantly. The majority of the community is so toxic that these new players either get farmed to the point of quitting or eternally ignored and trash talked to - and those who aren't toxic are just sitting around talking most of the time. If you put class limits to reduce these normal class counts in the average game, there will absolutely be regs ready to hop into those slots and not give them up. Everyone is so absorbed in the team scene that they expect casual to function like an actual match, and they make ends meet even if it means killing off hundreds of new players for good.

    Cooperation and Communication

    One of the main reasons PPMs have a very high success rate is that there are clearly set rules. You know what you're supposed to do, and you're expected to work fluidly with your team to achieve maximum efficiency in capturing the enemy's flag or defending your own. So, what happens when players are left to do as they please? Chaos. Your only guaranteed chance of having support for a push is by being in a call with someone - everything else can mean literally nothing to the rest of the team in a casual server. Whether it be chems refusing to buff, medics refusing to heal (or just use the class), or even scouts intentionally swapping enemy carriers away from recovery, people will always find ways to make your attempts at offending a living hell. Throwing in casual has roughly the same level of meaning as leaving a water bottle out in the sun - whoever does it is doing it just to be a dickhead, and there's 0 consequence.

    Conclusion

    All I can say is that CTF is in a pretty **** spot right now. The effort to organize things has been almost completely shifted away from casual, and I would not be surprised if PPMs became the only method of playing CTF in the near future. The thread has been thinning for years now, and the snap is long overdue. I'm not quite sure if it's even possible for this server to break out of the grave it's been sitting in.
     
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  2. minecraftnoob999

    minecraftnoob999 Well-Known Member

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    >People complain about others not playing offensive roles on maps.
    >A majority of the Maps encourage half of the people to play ****ing archer.
    >People wonder why no one plays the objective and why everyone is targeting archers.
     
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  3. Greenfoot5

    Greenfoot5 Member

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    With limits, you'll have to be careful. I think it could really help some games, but really annoy people in another. Either make the limits lax and increase as players increase would help this. And I'm all for the automation of joining. I mentioned in a thread a while ago about new/small games not getting any support and I think this would really help. As a bonus, you could allow players with a rank to pick lobbies, instead of joining full ones as this would be less of an issue.
     
  4. lnformative

    lnformative Well-Known Member

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    I think casual ctf is fine the way it is. It's not supposed to be something where you sit there and shred your keyboard with dorito fingers. It's for those who want to play it for fun in that sort of thing. if you want to play things more organized just join a ppm. i love the freedom of casual.
     
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  5. EmperorTrump45

    EmperorTrump45 Dank Memer

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    Yeah I agree class limits is not a solution. It also does more harm than good because if ya farm mad credits for a really cool class you want to play but can't play it well that really sh*ts in your scrambled eggs doesn't it. But then if you do get it you're probably not going to give that class up because you grinded credits for that class and enjoy playing it.

    Pretty strongly agree with this bit. Casual should be a for fun mode with an objective, not a hypercompetitive tft battle. As a player who is very bad at pvp and never really played for objectives that much (other than defense I guess) it would be good to make CTF classes less skill based. Legit I will play Dwarf because it lets me have some fun with minimal mechanics - even though the class is kind of bad on its own. And before the rework I played Engineer because it was potato brain OP. The way I see it is things are a bit more evened out in casual between new players (who usually arent as good at pvp) and people who have been actively playing for 6-7 years if classes are less mechanically intense and less reliant on your pvp skills. I also think it would be good to remove some of the existing restrictions in casual so it feels more like a sandbox and less like a competitive ranked experience.

    I also think this could draw in new players. It might not but I do think that's better than leaving things as is.

    That would fall under griefing but I don't really see how you'd create a report system for that or even make it efficient. Best you could do is have the player record video evidence but then again, it's casual. If people want to do their own thing well... I know that some people do this because they're bored. I personally find CTF boring so I might jack off all game, if I play, because that's more fun than actually trying to play or help out. So that could be one reason people grief, aside from just being assholes
     
  6. _Pai

    _Pai Well-Known Member

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    I think it's fine that casual and competitive play differently. A game I recall that tried to bring the casual and competitive sides closer together was TF2 with removal of quickplay and implementation of rank based matchmaking with smaller game sizes, even for casual. It really sucked the fun out of playing casual for a lot of people and arguably drove the game deeper into decline. Let casual be casual and competitive be competitive. Casual definitely has offense/defense issues but those can be fixed by balancing classes, not limits or roles.
     
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  7. SoCool21

    SoCool21 Bans Reports & Appeals Admin | McPvPer for Life <3

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    I agree with you though - I'm far more interested in seeing a brand new map, or a rework of a more niche map like Forgotten Civilization or Mountain Oasis, than another Pagodas or Beaver Creek. That being said, map selection is done almost exclusively by the community at this point. If during testing, the community prefers Beaver Creek XXVII over other reworked maps, why shouldn't we add it?

    That being said, we could definitely be doing more to encourage original maps and niche reworked maps to be made. Perhaps each map wave, we could hold 2 competitions:
    • Niche Old Map Competition: we'll select some niche old maps that are rarely reworked, and the most popular reworks of these maps will be added into the next rotation, alongside with a large prize.
    • Themed Competitions: e.g "Volcano Theme" or "Seaside Theme", and then restrict it to just new maps.

    Hopefully this would provide a solution that compromises well; one that encourages a more variety of maps to be made, but still allows Beaver Creek XXVII to be added into the rotation if the community vote for it during testing. What do you think about it?

    I think this is a flawed comparison. Bed Wars can get 14 players to start each game because it gets 10,000 players.

    I used to play a lot of Turbo Kart Racers - one of Hypixel's "dead" gamemodes. At the time, it had a lower limit of 5 players to start a game, and 12 players maximum. At peak times, it would still take 10-20 minutes for each game to start. This is despite Hypixel implementing some systems to encourage more people to join - such as broadcasting games that are about to start in sub-lobbies.

    If we raise the lower limit, we'd risk this happening on CTF during off-peak times. When I wake up at 8am UTC and hop on CTF, sometimes there's only 8 or 9 players. I'd imagine this is the same during late-night games for the US.

    I do agree with lowering the upper limit, though mostly because 50 player games are too chaotic and unbalanced. Even if we lower the limit to 30v30, this would still be a 24 player difference - which is an improvement, but still a large difference.
     
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  8. notfleb

    notfleb Well-Known Member

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    Having fun on casual AND playing objectively is about as rare as two 50/50 servers during October. I agree that the freedom allows people to do what they want to a larger extent, but 99% of the time it means they are at least ignoring part of the game objective. It used to just be the stat *****s, but with achievements being a thing that actually "pays" you for being an objective sweat, you're lucky to join a game where someone isn't 3/0ing the game in 2 minutes or rallying up MMR-busting defenses that kill anything near the flag room.

    Because the "community" is the same ~100 players that have been here since mcpvp. You have to understand that the vast majority of CTFers that are online regularly have been here for years - it's pretty much a factions server on the inside at this point. New players probably don't even hold a full percentile in the voting diversity when it comes to maps, and so you get whatever these ~100 like, which half the time is the same **** over and over. I'm not saying to completely disregard this concept, but it absolutely plays a part in making rotations so dull.

    You call my comparison flawed and then go on about a gamemode that isn't even mildly similar to CTF? I used bedwars as an example because it has the same general playstyle: You either offend or defend, and the objective is to defeat an enemy team. Bed Wars can get 14 players to start each game because that's what Hypixel designed it to be like - the 10,000 players just ensures that the same players aren't constantly doing the same thing over and over, which is exactly what Brawl CTF has become. The popularity of a gamemode depends on what the players find enjoyable about it; if CTF were an "enjoyable" gamemode, why do you think the same ~200 people account for 90% of the online player count every year? The simple truth is that this community is sweats and people who just want to chill and talk, with very little in between.



    Shoutout to diamondgirl25 for being literally the only new player I've seen stick around in the last year of CTF.
     
  9. SoCool21

    SoCool21 Bans Reports & Appeals Admin | McPvPer for Life <3

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    New players also most likely don't care much about maps. As long as the map is simple enough to not get lost on and is aesthetically pleasing, there's nothing more about a map that really effects them. CTF definitely has poor player retention and retention of new players overall is one of Brawl's major issues right now, but I would attribute this to the very high skill cap, instakills, and a large variety of different gameplay mechanics that need to be understood to play properly.

    What did you think of my suggestion to get a better variety of maps into the rotation?

    The comparisons were regarding required and maximum players for games. I compared CTF to Turbo Kart Racers because Turbo Kart Racers does not get enough players to start a game during off-peak times, which is what would happen with CTF if we raised the required amount of players. The actual gameplay has nothing to do with it.

    Of course, getting more players so the games have more variety would be ideal, but "getting more players" is the goal, not a solution to anything. Not to mention, on Bed Wars the meta is rushing every other team's base and almost entirely ignoring defensive or resource-collecting aspects of the game. In the majority of Bed Wars games, you will have players playing like this. In order to win as many games as possible, you have to play like this.
     
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  10. Salty_Ivan

    Salty_Ivan Well-Known Member

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    There are 4 or 8 teams in each game (excluding 4v4 and Castle), and a maximum of 16 players per game (excluding Castle). It's a fun game to play with friends because the people your success relies on are your friends and only your friends.
    Castle 40v40 is the only mode which is similar to CTF, with two teams, an objective you have to complete 3 times (3 beds per team), a large map and large teams with lots of randoms. Now, if Brawl had the playerbase that Hypixel does, we wouldn't be having this conversation because these 40v40 games are a couple good players on each team and then 30 random 10 stars. That's what CTF would be with a much larger playerbase. While Turbo Kart Racers isn't a perfect comparison either, it also struggles to get players.

    What SoCool said is right, you either offend or lose. There's more strategy to CTF than that.

    Hypixel has the playerbase to allow for strict player count numbers in each bedwars game. If CTF was designed to have a set number of players, let's say 10v10 per game, it would be really unbalanced. With the current playerbase it would be a nightmare. Imagine joining a game only to face DF when they stack casuals or something. I'm certain the same thing would happen if only 200 sweats accounted for 90% of bedwars playtime.

    And the only way to change that in the slightest is increase the playerbase. Other servers with similar player counts are probably like this too.
    Even Hypixel is, just on a larger scale with lots of randoms.
     
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