@randomcitizen1 I agree life is precious but I simply do not think it is right to deny a woman the right to choose if they were raped. I think it is very important to take both the rights of the mother and of the unborn child into consideration here and if we are going to do that then the mother should not have to have a child if they were forcibly impregnated.
I do greatly respect your opinion, and I may be gravedigging this discussion a bit (its interesting to talk to people who aren't idiots), but I think the only answer when dealing with a hot potato like abortion is to meet in the middle. By being either completely pro life or pro choice it is impossible to fairly consider the rights of both the unborn child and mother.
It's really simple.
Abortion should be a right, on CERTAIN circumstances. A mother should NOT be permitted for abortion IF she has financial capabilities, a proper environment, and is of legal age to be a guardian. If she is raped, preferably, in my opinion she should just use adoption. But, if it's too emotionally scarring, abortion should be an option.
So, we should turn the cheek from abortion in most cases, however we mustn't forget the rights of the mother. I'm not religious, but I do also believe an unborn child has rights. Abortion debates will NEVER be won or lost. You are either 100% pro-life or 100% pro-choice -- and if not, you will have an opinion like mine, in which abortion has its circumstances.
That being said, it's my opinion and I really don't care (nor have relevance, I'm not a mother or a woman) I think we should really leave it to women to debate, and stay out of this. I'm out
@nimai108 I'm sorry but do you have a hard time understanding simple concepts? THESE MOTHERS DO NOT WANT TO HAVE THESE BABIES. OK? IT WAS NOT IN THE POWER TO NOT HAVE A A BABY AND NOW THEY WANT AN ABORTION. OK? I don't know how you can't understand that.. If there was no such thing as rape and if conception was used by everyone, then we wouldn't need abortions.
Guys the bottom line is that when a mother has an abortion, she's not hurting anyone is she? So why do guys have this idea that it should be illegal? You can talk about human rights but we have far too many humans as it is, and an unborn fetus in early pregnancy isn't much of an alive human being.
Hey anyone want to talk about how terrorists and Syrian refugees are a significant threat to America while over 30,000 people a year die in America due to gun violence?
Roughly 60% of gun violence deaths in America are due to suicides. That is still 10,000 plus people who are killed in non suicide gun violence in America. Now you can either treat that problem by giving people more guns or you can treat the underlying issues of all the violence which include the shameful state of the mental healthcare in America and working class wages.
Do both. Mental health systems are crap, but if a psycho gets a gun and starts shooting it's too late to sit them down on the couch and ask what's wrong. Everyone has the right to defend themselves and not have their second amendment violated. It's insane that one can't have a weapon for self defense in Australia. That's wrong for us and that goes against the spirit of our constitution.
And working class wages have little do do with this, but since you brought it up, if the minimum wage goes up by more than $3, unemployment will skyrocket and all our jobs (metaphorically) will fly out of the country to China.
1. Who's gonna pay an American worker 15 dollars an hour? Some people don't deserve that for the work they do.
2. The constitution verbatim states "form militias" meaning armed citizens defending themselves. Everyone has a right to self defense with a firearm unless they are a criminal or ill.
Your argument against an actual starter wage instead of the current minimum wage - which is essentially a slave wage - is ridiculous. Just because some people do not do particularly meaningful work in your eye does not mean that the whole should see their wages depressed. Also, the poor wages in America are deeply connected to the violence when you consider that poor living almost always breeds a lot of discontent,
So we should ba roll the poor to the point where they have no motivation to benefit themselves? No. Benjamin Franklin agreed. I'll link the quote with my next post. I make 12.5 dollars an hour for a part time job and it is WAY too much money. I'd be fine with 10, but in my opinion the cost of living should barely be covered by minimum wage. There's no need to reward people who can only get a low level job.
It is best for all to leave each man free to acquire property as fast as he can. Some will get wealthy. I don't believe in a law to prevent a man from getting rich; it would do more harm than good. ~ Abraham Lincoln
Since I have proposed and began the topic of abortion, I believe I should be capable to contribute to its discussion, which I did not have the chance to do so. I have a secular, scientific, and logical view upon abortion and I will explain it with due detail as well as address the religious view upon abortion.
I am against the slaughter of any innocent and sentient living being, be it an animal or human. However, I am not against the slaughter of non-sentient living beings, such as plants. Applying this to the fetus, we must first determine whether or not a fetus is sentient.
According to various studies, the cerebral cortex is the center of sentience and consciousness. Without it, one's ability to experience, think, feel, and be conscious fades away. This turns them, mentally, to the state of vegetation.
In a fetus, the development of the cerebral cortex to the point of achieving sentience is not achieved before the second half of the second trimester. Typically, the sensory structures located within the brain of a fetus are not developed enough to feel pain or achieve sentience before 24 weeks.
With this knowledge (albeit not fully realized), we should allow abortions up until half the duration of a typical pregnancy has passed since sentience rarely, if ever, occurs in a fetus before the late second half of the second trimester.
Now, to address the religious reasons behind abortions. My knowledge of the Judeo-Christian and Islam scripture also allows me to apply it to the topic of abortion, giving Jews, Christians, and Muslims no real reason to oppose abortion. I shall present my evidence through way of quotations.
"The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen."
"And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed."
Through the examination of this passage found in the Old Testament (therefore applying to Jews, Christians, and Muslims), we see that there was actually some form of abortion in the Bible. An abortion typically used to get rid of fetuses that are believed to not be the result of one's husband.
This, therefore, validates a woman's right to abortion in all cases so far except through impregnation by one's husband. However, this is not the only quote we can use to support our case.
"And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver." -Leviticus 27:6 This suggests that God puts no value upon children, which applies to fetuses as well.
"Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD." -Numbers 3:15-16
Numbers 3:15-16 suggests that any child below one month of age is not to be counted in a census, suggesting them not to be a human, at least in the case of a census.
"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life." -Exodus 21:22-23
If a woman is caused a miscarriage by other men, but no harm to her, against her will, they are to be fined. However, if they were to harm the women, they shall be punished life for life, eye for eye, etc. Because the ending of a fetus does not result in punishment by life for life and eye for eye, it suggests that a fetus was not considered a life.
Also, the notion of "what could have been" with the birth of a fetus is speculative, foolish, selfish, and ultimately, stupid. Most women who have abortions do not have them "just because." They do it because they won't be able to care for the child, will struggle, are not ready to a bear a child, or will not care for the child. To force the birth of child to such a mother is to doom the child to an awful existence.
It is speculative that aborted fetuses "could have" done something great, such as cure cancer or invent something spectacular. A child born to an unwanting mother is not likely to achieve anything. A child born to unwanting surroundings is not likely to achieve anything if they survive. Besides, motion through time is irreversible (as opposed to space; motion through space is reversible).
The traveling of matter through time is its being in a constant state of change. As time passes, all matter eventually changes upon all levels (subatomic, molecular, etc.). The changes it goes through due to the time are irreversible. Time is not to be taught of as a wave (time) washing upon hidden rocks (events) that exist independent of the development of time.
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