Chemist v Archer

I think triple damage has always been a bit excessive, especially now with chemists reduced health pool. Most experienced archers can easily pick off a chemist before they can even do damage, from close or afar. Very obvious what my opinion is, I feel like the damage should be reduced to two times damage or maybe even 1.5 times damage. I still think some form of damage boost should be in place though.

 

As long as an archer can 2-shot a chemist while the chemist uses fewer than 2 health pots, I'm all for it. But yes, with the chemist nerf the current archer damage is a bit excessive.

edit because I don't want to double-post:

As I said up there ^^ 2 shots should be the maximum. There's a thin line between the difficulty of 2 and 3 shots; 3 shots would make archer just as effective as elf against chemist, and with either class, aiming fully-charged shots while being pummeled and splashed with damage (let alone landing 3 of them) is quite difficult.

 

I really like the 3x, has been a good counter to chemist imo. Reducing it to 2x would still be fine I guess but I always enjoyed the 3x, had some interesting combat mechanics in 1v1s

 

Why is there even a damage multiplier? Especially now that chemist has been cut in half, when... or better yet if it can even reach the enemy flag room with having to confront a midfield-defensive archer for instance, it surely won't have any health pots left. An archer's punch II is more than enough to keep enemies away and knock them back to get another opportunity for a headshot, all while dealing damage (which is already much higher to a chemist, 3.1 hearts w/o a multiplier, due to its cushioned armor). I understand chemist has speed I, but even then, the max a damage multiplier should be is 1.5. A chemist can buff other ground classes too, like heavy or medic, while they are still only affected by the damage and knockback of the archer's punch II bow, even when a chemist has less armor and now extremely limited health.

Some things to think about in regards to a chemist's way of healing:
- can completely heal the enemy
- has to look down every second in the middle of a fight
- can be knocked away from its own health pot
- can be quickly combo'd/crit killed before using a single health pot (by ninja(s) and/or heavy, esp. if buffed)
- has mana

Any encounter with an archer head-on (such as an unavoidable archer blocking an essential hallway or corridor at mid) was previously deadly with probably a 75% death rate, if not higher esp. if including headshots, and now it's an absolute death wish. Even if the chemist can survive the headshot and close range damage multipliers and kill the archer (if not killed would most likely kill you as you run to/inside the enemy flag room), the chemist would luckily have one health pot left – good luck doing anything with that.
So to sum up my opinion, I would see it fair with no more than a 1.5 damage multiplier dealing around 4.7 hearts of damage, even when there is no such archer counter or damage multiplier to similar ground classes like heavy or medic (which have better armor and are 9/10 always buffed with speed I and strength for offense in matches).
Chemist is one of the hardest roles and classes to play because not only does it have to deal with defensive pyros like most all classes, but it also has to deal with the intense DPS of a ninja and intense damage multipliers of an archer, both of which are unavoidable if on offense, which all in all, especially now, should leave it with no health if it finally reaches the enemy flag room. The greatest, and soon to be (please don't let this happen), only use of a chemist is for its buffs.

 

Simple: think about the amount of potions chemist has to throw to survive against an archer and think if that spam is really what you want for chemist

 

Firstly, I don't think it's a question of Archer vs Chemist, but of Chemist vs all the other classes. I'm pretty awful at melee, so if I'm don't use a class with high damage output (Assassin, Dwarf, Archer, Pyro) I get wrecked by Chemists every time - and there's plenty of people who are worse than me. So there's one argument for keeping the damage - it's noob friendly.

Secondly, most of the 4 Chemist counters will only encounter them while playing in defense. Dwarf and Pyro are pretty much stuck in the flagroom. Assassins will tend to avoid them anywhere else due to poison potions guaranteeing a kill every time they use redstone, unless they sneak up on them. Archer's the odd one out - there's no obvious place that an archer would naturally encounter chemists. The only time you'll get a Chemist versus Archer situation is when the Chemist approaches the Archer, or when the Chemist gets headshot (but the 3x damage doesn't even come into play here).

Thirdly, and following on from the last point, it gives Archer a purpose that isn't just senselessly headshotting people. I've found picking off Chemists in the flagroom as Archer to be at least as fun as headshotting, if a lot less rewarding, and I think that's the sort of thing we should be focusing on with Archer.

Finally, I would argue that Chemist/Archer 1v1s are actually fairly balanced if the Chemist is experienced (and if they weren't, why would they approach an archer?). I don't play Chemist, but I know how easy it is to strafe - I've defeated Archer after annoying Archer as Ninja without even going invisible - and I know how hard it is to kill people with Archer if you're not good at zoning with the bow. If your main complaint is that the matchup is unfair, 1) get better at the matchup, and 2) understand that hard counters exist elsewhere.

Note that these points are all valid both before and after the recent Chemist nerf. What I don't want is for CTF to unnecessarily dissolve into a soup of similar melee-orientated classes where every 1v1 ends up as a swordfight, just because people can't handle different mechanics. There's hundreds of ways to play the game, and that's what makes CTF special. And Archer countering Chemist is a part of that.
____________________________________________________________________

A suggestion for an Archer rework, to make it more fast-paced:

Tweaks:

1. Allow running while drawing the bow
2. Remove instakills
3. Add different types of arrows without making it too similar to Mage or Elf (see below)
4. Infinity bow
5. Sharpness 1 on the sword for a few seconds after landing an arrow hit
6. Bow cooldown after 10 arrows fired
7. Knocking players off the edge counts as a kill (e.g. [player] was shot off the edge while fighting [player]!
8. Chemist counter still in place

Arrow Ideas:

1. Normal - same as current
2. Reverse - draws opponents in instead of knocking them away
3. High Power - does more damage, but damages the Archer as well
4. Who knows? Suggest something!

____________________________________________________________________

There's no reason to remove the counter, but Archer does need a rework to make it more fun.

 

I can agree with only x2 more damage. More then reasonable.

 

I thought the end goal was to remove hard or strong counters in general. I vouch for the complete removal of the damage multiplier when Archer actually gets reworked.

But for now, just reduce it.

 

I have always thought this damage output was a little too much. So I vote for a change.

 

I think it should just be plain removed now, I really dun see a reason for it.

 

Them doing 7.5 hearts of dmg is fine, since archers still have the ability to kill chemis and the chemis still have time to heal up.

 

Since we are talking about archers, I don't think archers need a punch II effect. I find it somewhat unnecessary and a bit annoying

 

Honestly now archers are basically the most op thing for me. With all the health I had it was relatively easy to dispatch 90% of archers with a bit of planning. Now with the dramatic reduction in health pool I lose half my health pots on the first hit. The rest on the second hit and the 3 hit kills me. At most I can survive 6-7 hits with the health pool I have now. The mana reduction also greatly reduces my ability to strategize and create openings for a solid attack at the archers health. Beating an archer without an enormous amount of effort even noob archers that have little idea what they are doing with the class is extremely difficult if not nearly impossible. Either increase the potency of the pots again while keeping the pot number the same. Or reducing the hardcounter damage of the archers arrows will really resolve the issue imo.

 

as an archer id like to say that the damage should be reduced to chemist. i agree with @pookeythekid on the max being x2 if anything.

 

I think it shud be removed completely now

 

Archer should still remain a counter to chemist to keep the system balanced, but the multiplier should be nerfed, there's no need to have it as high anymore given chemist is much more balanced

 

Yeah, I think the Archer should x3 damage. That would be about 6 hearts of damage to Chemist with a fully charged bow. This allows Archer to 2-shot the Chemist, but only with the bow (back then 1 Sword hit + fully charged bow was a kill) and also lets the Chemist pot themselves to survive.

 

What math are you doing? XD A fully charged shot does 9.5 not 6. With half the health pool 9.5 is excessive damage :/

 

Sorry, typo. I meant to say x2 damage.

Chemist's armor gives 10 points of armor. Each armor point gives 4% damage reduction. 10 points of armor is 40% damage reduction.

A fully charged bow shot deals 9 or 10 damage (it's random). So 9*2=18. Apply damage reduction from armor (18*.60=10.8) and you get 10.8, which is slightly less than 5.5 hearts. It's not 6 hearts but it's close enough for a rough estimate.

But yeah, I did not notice that 3. I meant to write 2.