Idea Archer Rework REVISED (nerf/buff combo)

On 3-26-2020:
*I've kept things the same for the most part but I suggested the removal of Chemists suffering extra damage from Archer arrows if these changes were to be implemented, and I've rearranged and rephrased some of the descriptions to hopefully be a tad more clear. I've also suggested the possibility of having Archer arrows regenerate a bit faster than Elf arrows since Archers likely need to shoot more arrows than Elves during combat*

On 9-27-2017:
*I've changed the term for the "Damage Bow" to the "Power Bow" for simplicity*
*I've added a note about how these changes may affect Elves*

On 9-24-2017:
*I've increased the suggested arrow count from 12 to 20 and added a few notes*
*I've kept the ability for classes to prevent snipes by crouching & blocking with a sword, but I've removed the idea for successful snipes to only cause normal damage (which would be yet another nerf on snipes) rather than true instakill damage (as it is now, and as it should remain for this to possibly work)*

(Poll voting has long since expired and closed)

As many well know:
Some complaints when fighting against Archers include:
- Bowspam (cannot be stressed enough - despite how hard MANY have tried to stress this, heh).
- No way in an open-area for most classes to defend against barrages of snipe shots.
- Many wish to do away with the long distance snipe instakill altogether.

Some complaints when fighting others as an Archer include:
- Very underpowered in melee combat, as well as combat that starts off ranged and becomes melee.
- No effective way to keep juggernaut-sworded classes away without resorting to latency-reliant bowspam.
- Many wish to do away with the long distance snipe instakill altogether (this complaint poses a problem for both Archer haters and Archer lovers, so it's fair to list it under both categories).

My proposed changes and their predicted effects:
Slot 1: Stone Sword -- unchanged.

Slot 2: Steak (4) -- unchanged.

Slot 3: Power Bow (Power I, always causes regular Power I pumped damage except to Elves using their reflecting shield by crouch/blocking, can cause an instakill snipe if the shot is from a distance of an unchanged 30+ blocks away and is not crouch/blocked by any enemy target whether they're an Elf or not).

Slot 4: Punch Bow (Punch II effect only if fully drawn when shot and the enemy target is not crouch/blocking whether they're an Elf or not, causes no damage whatsoever, cannot be used to achieve a snipe instakill).

Slot 5: Arrow stack (Starts off at 20 and gradually increases back to 20 maximum, similar to an Elf's arrow regenerating system but possibly regenerating arrows a bit more quickly than an Elf's).

Slot 6: <empty>

Slot 7: <empty>

Slot 8: Compass -- unchanged.

Slot 9: Nether Star -- unchanged.

Archers get the often-suggested regenerating quiver of arrows.
- Archers would start with an upper limit of 20 arrows.
- Archer arrows would regenerate either at the same rate as Elf arrows (since this mechanic already works well for the Elf class) or perhaps a bit faster (since Archers tend to go through arrows more quickly, and their sword is not as powerful as an Elf's sword).
- The purpose of this is to cut back on continuous long term "bowspam" by limiting the number of arrows that an Archer has at any given time. It's also to balance out the buff in Archer arrow damage from the Power Bow a bit.

Introduce 2 different bows for Archers to carry and choose between.
- Arrows are shared between both bows.
- The "Power Bow" has Power I and causes its damage upon hitting regardless of whether or not a player is crouching, blocking, or both. Only this bow can achieve the snipe/headshot instakill from an unchanged 30+ blocks away if (and only if) the target is not both crouching & blocking when the arrow hits (much like an Elf does when activating their reflective shield). Even at snipe distance, the same full damage from the shot applies with Power I even if a target is crouching & blocking - it just doesn't instantly kill them if they're protecting their self this way.
- The "Punch Bow" causes no damage but has (the triumphant return of) Punch II's knockback if (and only if) the bow is fully drawn before taking the shot - and only if the target is not crouching & blocking when it hits. Arrows are exhausted from the Archer's supply whether or not the bow is fully drawn, but unlike the Lobby area an arrow still shoots out from the player - but it would simply have no effect if not fully drawn (possibly just that *smack* sound if the target is hit with it, and the *ding* sound heard by the Archer). This bow cannot score a snipe/headshot at all. This is most helpful to knock soldiers down from treetops, keep juggernaut sword wielders at bay EFFECTIVELY, and help with flag defense by bumping enemy flag carriers backward noticeably, as well as bumping attackers away from a friendly flag carrier.
- Archers would need to switch between bows and therefore have to redraw the bowstring to switch between their unique effects.
- Being knocked back and suffering damage from Archer arrows would no longer occur simultaneously since the Punch Bow wouldn't cause any damage at all, and the harmful Power Bow wouldn't have any Punch enchantment to knock targets back at all.
- Enemies who crouch & block will not be knocked back from the Punch Bow, but they won't be able to quickly charge in while doing so neither. They also risk suffering full damage from the Power Bow if the Archer switches (and still has enough arrows to shoot with). This back-and-forth between advancing and blocking, and bow switching, would make fighting against Archers a bit of a guessing game, and although it occupies the focus of the Archer and the attacker(s) it effectively distracts the Archer from shooting snipe shots at others during that time.
- Surprising an Archer with melee combat should actually prove more effective for an attacker, between the Archer likely spending at least a few arrows on distant snipe shot attempts on other enemies plus the fact that the fight is beginning with the unsuspecting Archer suffering damage from the first surprise attack. Currently, skilled Archers quickly react by turning toward the direction they're being smacked away from to face the threat and release the arrow they've probably already had fully drawn and ready while waiting for a chance to snipe. As it is now, this shot knocks the target back a bit and gives the Archer some time to assess the threat and draw another arrow - not to mention the enemy is hurt by the immediate arrow shot from full draw strength too. With these changes, the quick reflex shot would likely be from the Power Bow if it was being used for sniping, so the enemy would be hurt a bit more from the Power enchantment but they wouldn't be knocked back as far from it so another swing can hit the Archer a bit sooner. If the Archer switches to the Punch Bow for knockback, it would need to be fully drawn from scratch to fire a knockback shot which might be crouch/blocked by the enemy anyway. And in that time the enemy could choose to run in and hit a second and possibly third time with their sword instead before being knocked back by that shot - especially if they have a speed buff in their favor. Archers best remain even more aware of their surroundings if these changes come into play.

Chemists would no longer suffer extra damage from Archer arrows.
- Chemists would suffer the same amount of damage from Archer arrows shot from the Power Bow as all other classes, but they would of course be pumped with Power I.

Archer snipe instakills & Archer knockback effects would be completely negated if an enemy target blocks & crouches, but Power I damage from harmful arrows would still fully apply.
- Whether or not a non-Elf enemy target is crouching & blocking, normal Power I damage would still fully apply if an Archer hits using the Power Bow. This acts as both a buff and a nerf for the Archer since harmful close range arrows would inflict more damage, but players could potentially negate the instant killing effect of snipe shots at a distance.
- Archer players would use less knockback bowspam in serious fights if they know what's best for their survival in close combat since the knockback effect from the Punch Bow can be crouch/blocked, it's only effective from fully drawn Punch Bow shots, the arrow count is limited over short lengths of time, and arrows shot by the Punch Bow would cause no damage at all even if they do hit effectively. However, they would knock an enemy back farther than the current Archer bow if that enemy was not crouching & blocking when hit with it, and this is helpful for strategies involving flag recovery and knocking enemies off perches.
- Players would now be able to defend themselves against anticipated Archer snipes - even while in open areas - but at the cost of slowing down dramatically while doing so. In the case of attempting to snipe an enemy flag carrier, this protection against Archer snipes would allow other teammates to catch up far more easily. This could help Archers be even more team-oriented, and it could help early players develop a bit of Elf defense practice if they're being shot at in case they're interested in purchasing the Elf class later on (not to mention the arrow regeneration would be a bit of early Elf familiarity too).
- Assassins might get annoyed because enemies may start blocking more often when anticipating snipes in areas that Archers target.
- Chemists would no longer suffer 1.5x damage from Archer arrows. While holding a sword, a buffed Chemist can potentially advance more easily to get within the "too close to be sniped" zone, but if they take too many Power Bow hits and need to heal with a potion, that opens up a chance for the Archer to switch to the Punch Bow and knock them back if their timing is right. I think Archer vs. Chemist matches would become a bit more fair for both (currently, sometimes a Chemist has trouble getting close and they exhaust all their potions and lose a very long battle against a very skilled Archer, and sometimes an Archer has trouble keeping a Chemist at a distance or dealing enough damage in time to survive against the impending toe-to-toe melee disaster). Even with the current damage multiplier from Archer arrows in effect, most matches seem to favor the highly skilled Chemist over the highly skilled Archer given their buffs and multiple heal potions. Removing the boosted arrow damage wouldn't REALLY be a nerf to Archers since the Power Bow would deal more damage to all classes...it just wouldn't be knocking them back at all (unless the Archer decides to switch to using their Punch Bow).
- Elves that crouch & block have no change to how their protective shields already work. The arrows, as well as their effects, are deflected back at the Archer, and the Elf and any other players protected by the Elf's shield suffer no damage or bow effects at all - not even the damage from the Power Bow. If the Archer shoots an Elf's protective shield then that Archer quickly arms a sword and crouches & blocks the returning arrow, then any snipe instakill or knockback effects are negated if hit. However, the damage from a deflected Power Bow shot would still fully apply when it reflects back and hits that Archer. This would introduce a combination of a buff & nerf to Elves as well. A deflected Punch Bow arrow could potentially knock an Archer off a high perch if the Archer doesn't block it, and even if an Archer quickly protects against a Power Bow snipe shot that gets deflected back it would still cause damage with the Power I enchantment boost if it hits on its return path - far more effective than what an Archer would suffer from an Elf deflecting an arrow back at that Archer currently at shorter distances. But yes, at longer snipe distances, an Archer could anticipate a reflected arrow and arm their sword to block the instakill reflected snipe effect (but they would still suffer all the enchantment boosted regular damage from that arrow since it was fired from a Power Bow).
- Any class that cannot block will need to maintain old strategies to avoid being sniped from far away with the Power Bow or knocked back if hit with the Punch Bow, such as dodging and seeking cover, but I predict this would make Archer vs. Mage combat a bit more fair since Power Bow arrows would deal a bit more damage. The Archer would still not have the dodging freedom that the Mage would have when aiming and firing though, and the Archer would of course have a limited supply of arrows in the short run, but more damage output in a shorter span of time before the Mage can heal again could prove effective enough to see a few more wins against a Mage onslaught.

This collection of ideas is thanks to a few ideas I've read from others as well as a few ideas I've thought of either originally or independently. I'm not sure who is responsible for being first at coming up with each idea, but together this combination seems to me like it could make both playing as an Archer and battling against Archers more interesting and fun.

 

I'm thinking if names similar to the names I've mentioned ("Damage Bow" and "Punch Bow") are given to the items, the item name will appear above the hotbar and hopefully enough new players will be able to notice that difference soon enough. Otherwise the effects should give it away (one bow causing players to bump backwards when hit, or doing nothing if the target is crouching & blocking, and the other bow causing players to turn red for a moment whether or not they're crouching & blocking).

I agree that 12 arrows seems quite low (I had originally considered 24, after researching that medieval quivers typically held 24 or more arrows), but after hearing so much about anti-bowspam I figured it was still a bit more arrows than elves had at most. Also, with one of the archer's bows being granted Power I in my rework each arrow that is shot would be more valuable. Taking the time to aim, lead, predict, etc. even at closer ranges would pay off enough to be worth giving up on the mindless bowspam "strategy" altogether.

I like the mana bar idea too, as long as something allows archers to have an endless supply of arrows over a long period of time but a limited supply of arrows over a short span of time. Even a shot fatigue bar that makes shooting arrows in succession increasingly delayed would achieve the same thing, but I favored the elf system because it's already in place for elves and most likely requires far less programming work to introduce to archers. Also, players who are familiar with elves would know how it works already, and completely new players who would play as these revised archers would already be familiar with the arrow regen system if they spend credits on or donate to gain the elf class later on.

An archer just sniping with arrows that regenerate at the rate that elf arrows regenerate should see no problem running out of arrows neither unless there's a mad crowd in a small area (such as an unguarded engineer teleporter exit in the open) - but the same would hold true for the mana XP bar too, depending on its timing.

@Wizzlol707, I'm pretty sure this idea came from YOU first, ha ha, and I liked it - which is why I included it as a bit of a limiter for knockback on the Punch Bow. It wouldn't apply to the Damage Bow at all, because that bow is strictly for causing unavoidable Power I-boosted damage and distant snipe shot bonus damage if enemies aren't prepared for them by crouching & blocking.

Hmm? What timer thing do you mean exactly?

At the time, I was thinking the snipe damage would still kill quite often, and it would still be displaying "You sniped [So and so]" the same as it already does - but it wouldn't have ALWAYS resulted in a kill. The stronger-armored classes often struggle to take down archers that are aware of them no matter how balanced each player's skill level is, and I thought this would give the armored classes a bit of an edge over other classes that struggle far less against skilled archers.

In addition, I was thinking it would help balance kill credits since archers can kill steal far more easily than any other class. With the "normal damage instead" change to sniping, if a ninja is chasing a heavy who gets hit with a successful snipe shot just before that ninja attacks, much of the damage would have already done by the archer and the ninja can earn the kill easily after chasing down the heavy - rather than how it would be currently, with the ninja seeing the heavy suddenly die from an instant snipe shot and having the chase be in vain.

However, I have agreed because those previous ideas combined essentially nerf the snipe as it currently is in two different ways. Not only would most players be able to protect against suffering from a snipe shot, but even a successfully landed snipe shot would suddenly causes less damage. Plus, when thinking about the ninja vs. heavy example, a mean ninja could camp archer-controlled areas and pearl in to slice down enemies who were severely weakened by a snipe hit, winning quick easy fights and deliberately robbing archers of kill credits. So don't worry. My archer rework no longer suggests the removal of instakill snipe shots.

Remember, the Damage Bow would cause full unhindered damage with a Power I boost at any range, whether or not a target is blocking it. Only the knockback and snipe effects are negated (even before I decided to keep the instakill snipe, the regular damage from the Damage Bow applied from hits even if the bonus snipe damage was being negated by crouching & blocking). Even at closer range, the archer would just need to use the Damage Bow to keep hitting an enemy that tries the "stay put and block" strategy until they're dead, lol. It would be all about outguessing the opponent. In battles that are closer than snipe distance, while crouching and blocking the target is a sitting duck for the Damage Bow, but is immune to the knockback of the Punch Bow. While the target is moving and trying to close in while dodging arrows, the archer is a sitting duck drawing the bowstring back while trying to hit with that Damage Bow, but can knock the target back if shots hit with the Punch Bow.

 

Hmm, you do make an excellent point about sniping taking a double-nerf, and that does seem quite unfair. I'd side with 1-shot-snipe-kills remaining with the ability to protect against it. That way, the fact that enemy flag carriers would be essentially "frozen in place" by severe snipe threats still comes into play, allowing others on flag defense a much better chance to catch up and contribute (unless they're crouching & blocking because of too many enemy archers too, of course, lol). Either way, normal damage would still be dealt from the arrows that hit, so eventually the flag carrier would get killed by the shots if they stayed put without any help.

Having snipe damage mechanics change from being true damage to being normal damage without having the blocking & crouching help at all would be my second choice as far as sniping goes -- but I would still keep the crouch/block as a way to defend against being knocked back from the Punch Bow (because it would clearly be overpowered with Punch II if there's no way to counter it, and having a weak knockback causing no damage or having no knockback whatsoever takes much of an archer's survival and fun out of the picture).

 

Note: I've changed my mind about having no instakill snipe for archers, in case that was something that played a role in your complaint.

I'm assuming you mean a case where a heavy is carrying the flag and a medic is nearby providing as many heals as needed. A single patient archer could wait until the quiver is full, then use the Damage Bow (which I'll probably rename the "Power Bow" to name it after its enchantment like I did for the "Punch Bow") to attempt a snipe instakill shot at the flag carrying heavy. If unsuccessful, the medic could be targeted next with either a single successful snipe or multiple hits to exhaust all steaks and kill the medic. Then the heavy could be chopped down with arrows. More than one archer, or an archer backed by a team rushing in, would be a better way to recover if they're just crouching in place & blocking. Granted, this case makes a lone archer less of a limelight star team member, but remember the example is one player vs. more than one player, and CTF is a game of team play and strategy. Having any other player rush in and get the medic or heavy to fight will mean they're not crouching & blocking constantly anymore and instakill snipes can squeeze in.

Side notes: Every sword-wielding class would have a non-reflecting elf-shield ability -- only the elf shield of an actual elf class would cause the elf no damage at all when used, and the arrow would fling back toward the archer only from elves doing this. All other classes that crouch & block would still get hit by the arrow and suffer the damage from it, but they'd be saved from being instantly killed by a snipe-ranged shot from the Damage Bow (AKA the "Power Bow").

As for the ninja standing in a lot of water, again hitting with arrows that cause damage would take the ninja out if they hit more often than the ninja hits with that beast of a sword. Apart from that, use steak when needed, aim well enough to make it count, fire with precision, and hope that the ninja isn't better/luckier than you...lol. Not much different than ninja fights are now, only with less knockback and more steak use. If better with a sword, ninjas can be chopped down with even that stone sword, again if enough steak is available and used.

As for stalemates, archers would still be able to put an effective dent in how long those last. Even with the current snipe system, the flag drops to the floor 30+ blocks away from the archer when a flag carrier is sniped. If other teammates are near it to return it in that case, then equally in this case they'd be there helping to prevent the flag carrier from constantly being immune to snipe instakill shots by forcing them to run around or attack because that flag carrier is a sitting duck having almost no movement speed to PvP against the attacker(s) while crouching & blocking.

I've removed the "normal damage instead of instakill true damage from snipe shots" idea altogether. Although I do still think it's fair to give most players a chance to defend against it beyond just being lucky enough to not be in the path of a snipe or to actively dodge or hide from snipe arrows effectively. It's clearly unfair to nerf archers by allowing way more people to protect from snipes AND have snipes that do succeed have no guarantee of a kill.

Archers can't run/escape as easily as elves, and obviously the bow is an archer's best friend. If anyone is going to have a good reason to look into a way to have arrows that never run out, it's going to be archers - even if they need to travel to the land of the elves to purchase quivers like the elves use, ha ha. Over a long period of time, archers would be shooting a lot of arrows with these changes (which wouldn't require any intense new programming to introduce because it's already done, just with a different upper limit) but it would put a damper on how long they can go on spamming arrows over a shorter period of time.

The best example that comes to mind is that you're an archer, and an enemy chemist has been kind enough to drop some helpful potions on a skilled heavy. This heavy is rushing in at you with his sword itching for archer blood. You could stick with the one bow and cause damage, but the heavy knows enough shots can't hit before plowing in -- so you could instead throw in a curve ball by switching bows and knocking the heavy way back. Now, maybe the heavy will start anticipating this and begin crouching & blocking, which will slow down the charge tremendously. From there it becomes a game of outwitting the opponent. While crouching & blocking, arrows from the bow that hurts can do a fair amount of damage...but if the Punch Bow is being used, a bigger gap is possible if hit with it.

Similar uses goes for many other classes too, but for different reasons. Keep an engineer and his pointy pick-axe at bay. Try to keep a chemist from rushing in with all those buffs. Keep a mage and its ability to constantly Damage Spell & strafe far enough away to become a smaller target for the spells or become out of range completely. Bump a dwarf off the flag so you or a teammate can rush in and grab the flag without realizing what it would feel like to be hit by a truck made of lava. Try to keep a charging elf from using its superior sword to cut you down...etc. Quite a few situations and uses. Some more creative than others I'm sure.

I do agree (at sniping distance of course, heh).

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It would make it more like the wind element, but with one perk and one limitation by comparison. The perk is that Punch II's knockback is stronger than the wind element push, but the limitation is that the wind element can push players in many directions depending on where it lands, rather than being forced to only knock them away from the shooter/source.

I'm hoping changes like the ones I'm forging here would do away with unavoidable bowspam. It would certainly do away with long term bowspam, even though more than 20 arrows being shot before a full-quiver archer is drained (given that the first few arrows shot would regenerate by the time the 20th arrow is shot) would still be a pretty annoying amount of time -- but even then, if anticipating knockback shots, just time them and crouch & block in time and close the gap.

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I like the idea too, but of course I can't accept any credit for the idea. Not only have elves had it for a long time, but I'm far from being the first one to suggest that it be applied to archers too.

 

I'll try to address all the recent comments/complaints here without having to quote each and every message...

I've heard instakill snipes/"headshots" are going to become a thing of the past. I have no idea when, and I have no idea if there's any truth to it. As an alternative to having snipe kills dropped completely I thought that making it possible to avoid in any map (no matter how open-plains-like it is) would allow archers to keep the instakill snipes while also balancing other classes a little bit (for example, the mage cannot block, so it would make the mage class less overpowered in general and would cut down on any demands to nerf mages).

The armored classes carrying a flag are vulnerable for a moment when healed since it disables blocking for a quick moment, so lucky timing could come into play. Also, if they have to stay in place crouching & blocking to avoid being sniped they're not fighting any around who are trying to help an archer return the flag. If they strike, they're able to be sniped - just like they'd become vulnerable to assassination when they decide to strike rather than block. Faster classes would no longer be quite as fast if they're hindered by protecting with crouching & blocking every now and then to avoid being sniped - and if they stay put protecting they'll risk taking harder hits thanks to Power I.

Having more arrows in the quiver would be okay by me as well. I had originally suggested 24 arrows, but I think 30 or more would be too many if one goal is to discourage and reduce bowspam. Even 20 arrows is a lot to be pelted with one after another in a row when trying to get close to an archer who happened to have a (currently suggested as 20) full supply.

Carrying two bows is less complicated than it seems for Brawl beginners when most Minecraft players who are familiar with enchantments have probably carried one pick for mining stone and a special fortune pick for yielding diamonds and other valuable block types - or they've probably carried one powerful sword for killing enemies and another flame/cooking sword for killing animals. Besides, already dealing with elves reflecting snipe shots is pretty involved for new archers. Not to mention, soldiers are fairly involved for a free class as well with the leap meter and having to realize that wielding the sword and right-clicking (by default) allows you to leap/climb -- that action doesn't even exist in vanilla Minecraft. The only unexpected thing for a new archer to learn about the bows that differs from how archers would be now for beginners is that the Punch Bow causes no damage, and players can protect themselves from special archer arrow effects.

The "Did you know?" type messages that pop up could tell players "You can protect yourself against an archer's snipe instakill or knockback by crouching and blocking" so all players would become aware of the change, and would soon be adopting it into their play strategies if implemented.

When closing in on an archer, the archer isn't moving much at all (if not staying completely still) while the bow is fully drawn. If Punch Bow shots are being blocked, the time between draws is when the advancing player runs closer. If the archer turns to run away, then the chase is on as normal. Eventually, the gap is closed unless too many successful hits are suffered - just as it is already without any changes. The only difference would be that no damage is suffered by the advancing player if the only thing the archer was doing was trying to stay distant with the Punch Bow. In this little showdown scenario, outguessing the opponent or having better timing or skill plays a more major role in success for either player if the archer knows when to switch bows, when to run, etc. and if the other player knows when to dodge, protect, advance, etc.

CTF stalemates will always happen in games that have far more players protecting than attacking. I've always favored the archer/ninja pair using a snipe/pearl recovery tactic when trying to get my team's flag back, so even that often relies on a teammate (because as many archers know, sniped flags are often grabbed by one of the many nearby protecting players on the enemy team). Arrows with Power I hurt notably more than arrows with no power enchantment at all too. A snipe with these changes might be able to be blocked, but if the shot hits, the damage is a bit greater than current archer arrows - and if healers are nearby, they'd need to be out-damaged or dealt with first as should be expected when a lone player is taking on many players.

Being able to push enemies farther, or being able to cause more damage per shot whether it's crouch/blocked or not with archer bows would make regular combat a bit more tolerable for archers, even though farming snipe kills would be trickier against enemies who anticipate them. In short, snipe exploitation is traded off for a more powerful combination of arching abilities. Archers would certainly be different, but they would not become completely useless just because they'd no longer be gods at long range, subject to fail solely by the discretion of their own poor aim, or the environment blocking their shots, or target players actively dodging the arrows that they actually see - oh, and vigilant elves of course. Can't have archers easily sniping elves without taking an even more treacherous risk.