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Complete Classic Castles

Discussion in 'Map Submissions' started by GoodJobBud, Jun 17, 2019.

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  1. GoodJobBud

    GoodJobBud Member

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    2019-06-19_05.03.48.png 2019-06-19_05.04.06.png 2019-06-19_05.04.17.png 2019-06-19_05.04.48.png 2019-06-19_05.05.07.png 2019-06-19_05.05.52.png CTF Map Submission

    Map Name: Classic Castles
    Map ID: 421641
    Style: Medieval
    Creator(s): Forleb
    Structure Restricted Areas: Near spawns, on & near large bridges, near & inside castles
    Configured (yes/no): no
    Number of Caps: 3
     
    • Like Like x 1
    #1 GoodJobBud, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  2. TheDCSportsGirl

    Joined:
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    I am currently unable to get on Minecraft and view any maps. Any feedback I give is purely from screenshots. If something I say is inaccurate, please disregard it, but know that taking better screenshots would help with that. Also, please take screenshots from a bird's eye view so it can be easier to see the layout of the map as a whole.

    I'm going to go through each screenshot and bring up one issue I have with each.

    First, I want to mention overall issues I have that don't come from any particular screenshot.

    Tall grass is awful for PvP, and while you're only using the normal variant here, it's important to realize why tall grass is bad. Tall grass is awful because it prevents people from engaging with one another. Because no blocks except player structures can be broken, grass will indefinitely be in the way of PvP. With that in mind, normal grass will sometimes bring about a similar problem, in that it makes fighting from below very difficult. In most cases, grass doesn't particularly add very much to aesthetics, so it would be safest to leave it out entirely, but if you're stuck on it, try to make it less prevalent.

    The map is very small. Blackout is the smallest map at about 100x100, but has more vertical structures to make up for that. This map is absolutely tiny in comparison. Keep in mind that a map being small isn't necessarily bad, but comes with its consequences, and you should keep those in mind.
    I can give you examples of those consequences if you wish, but I'd like to keep this as brief as possible.

    I'll start with the first screenshot and make my way down.

    Judging from the picture, I think the size of the flag building is too small. There is a very huge problem that is compounded by the size of the flag building, the style of the flag room itself, and the style of the map.

    Second screenshot

    The linear style of this map is a very big problem for me. First off, it should be understood that most maps have more than one route. That isn't to say that "most maps" are in the right, but you can learn from maps that are currently in rotation.
    Maps that offer separate routes usually have active-passive trade-offs for each route. That is to say, a trade-off for being able to avoid an active archer threat is that you have to passively take more time using the safer route.
    For instance, a path through the middle of the map might be faster passively, but may also put you in more direct contact with a lot of enemies or archer's potential instakills. On the other hand, an underground pathway is always safe against archer, but usually provides the disadvantage of extra travel time.
    As it stands, the map is too small to gain very much extra travel time from going below the bridges, and furthermore, seeing as there are only two possible routes to take, you will likely encounter resistance no matter where you go.
    More than anything, though, there is no flexibility in terms of routing, and players are essentially forced into situations by the map itself, which doesn't allow for interactive or creative play.

    Third screenshot

    Not only is it unnecessary to have what appears to be stairs and then a ladder, but it means that players will spend a huge amount of time traveling unproductively. CTF is overall a very fast-paced game, and slowing down to go up or down a ladder, as well as to climb a spiral staircase, provides a ton of downtime from actual gameplay. There's nothing wrong with having a shorter flag building, or a wider one with steps at the front.

    Fourth screenshot

    I'm going to try to be gentle here. This flag room is very poorly designed. Very little of it is conducive to a fun experience for anyone.
    Speaking from an offender's perspective, the flag room is so small that a pyro can easily melt anyone who comes in, no matter how many people there are. There are only two flag room entrances, so your movement is telegraphed to an extreme degree, and it means that defenders have a very easy time dealing with you.
    From a defender's perspective, the pillar in the middle prevents you from consistently being able to attack offenders, as they could just go around and play chicken with you the entire time. In addition, the entrance on the roof compounded with forced ladder travel time means that a soldier or elf could get out through the top and you'd be left struggling to even get out the building in time. The map is so small that an archer can't do much at that point if the flag carrier decides to go underground, and the rest is history.

    Now for that huge issue I mentioned earlier (which I completely forgot to be honest, so I'm going to write it now)

    The small size of the map, the linearity, and the poor design of the flag room and flag building all contribute to a poor sense of pacing (i.e. how good it feels to play, and how you get rewarded for the time spent playing the objective).
    You should understand that CTF is a game reliant on movement and timing. The gameplay is centered around efficient movement, and by extension, the balance of offense and defense relies on the ability of the map to allow for well-paced movement and coordinated decision-making.
    As it stands, this map suffers from a lot of what I like to call "bipolar pacing," where some aspects of the map are heavily biased towards defense, while other are biased towards offense. The result is a map that isn't fun to play on offense because of the defensive bias, and isn't fun to play on defense because of the offensive bias. The map is arguably "balanced," yes, but the map isn't any fun to play, because no matter what you're playing, you get stopped by huge roadblocks every time you want to play the game.

    Just as an example:
    The flag room overall is defense biased. The small space and the difficult for most classes to get into the flag room combine to create an awful time stealing and leaving the flag room with the flag.
    But the moment a soldier or elf gets out of the room, offense suddenly has a huge upper hand, like I mentioned for the last screenshot.
    So the game becomes less interactive, and more just "how easily can we power through defense" for offense, and likewise, "how easily can we stop offense from powering through" for defense.

    The best way to counteract this is to make it hard but not impossible for offense or defense to do anything.

    Overall, I think it would help if you played with the map in mind. This doesn't mean you have to; being good at CTF often means being good at playing on any map thrown at you. But if you'd like to make a map, you need to figure out which features of existing maps are beneficial to gameplay, or just fun in general. There are no clear examples of maps that are bad, because maps that make it through testing are always going to be at least mediocre, so it's essential to be able to understand why you like that one map's flag room so much.

    The goal of a map and its creator should be to allow every player, regardless of class or playstyle, to have fun. If the map isn't fun to play, the game won't be fun to play on that map, and no one wants to play a game that isn't fun.
    You need to cater to every class, even if you don't like a particular class. I'm not sure how much experience you have in general, but you should aim to have a decent understanding of what map features make which classes good.
    I really really hate archer, but in the spirit of people being able to play it, I'd want maps to give archers fair, balanced angles that all require some level of aim or at least heavy prediction.
    Make of this what you will. I can give you specifics and/or ideas if you really want, but as the creator of the map, it's up to you to make the map fun to play.

    Another edit: The success of a player should be independent of the map. People like to be able to improve their skills and apply those improved skills to new maps. Conversely, people do not like it when their performance is dictated by the map itself. On this map, it doesn't matter if you're the best pyro in the world, the best assassin in the world, the best heavy in the world, etc. If you're defending inside the flag room and a soldier gets out through the top, you have no way to catch up to them. The map has essentially prevented you from applying any skill you have to the game.

    Best
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    #2 TheDCSportsGirl, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  3. GoodJobBud

    GoodJobBud Member

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    I agree with most of what's here, except for the flag room path. To add a bigger flag room to this map i'd have to scale up the castle, adding more travel time. Speaking of which, the path currently is anything but excessive; There's another castle map I forget the name of that takes a good 30 seconds to ascend, and many others with notably longer flag room paths.

    This is my first map, so i'm glad you took the time to critique it as much as you did. I'll try to improve it.

    Thanks!
     
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  4. TheDCSportsGirl

    Joined:
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    Hi again, friend! I should let you know that that map is actually awful, and if I recall correctly, it's just called "Castle."
    I do see your point, but I'd also like to emphasize that you probably shouldn't be using a bad map as your point of reference. That map is a terrible example, and while it is far more excessive, it doesn't mean that the same thing can't be improved here.
    With that in mind, though, you do have a point that the increased size of the castle would increase travel time. This wouldn't really be too big of an issue if the map was larger, but it doesn't mean you have to change your design perspective. Rather, you might just have a harder time finding a flag room that works. Considering the small size of the map, it will be hard to balance a flag room without shattering gameplay entirely.

    EDIT: I don't mean to come off as harsh; I write a lot, and I think it may come off as kinda mean. Please understand that I'm just analytical and in-depth in general. All things considered, your first map is a lot better than mine! Keep up the good work!

    Best.
     
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  5. GoodJobBud

    GoodJobBud Member

    Joined:
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    I updated the map yesterday and forgot to mention it, sorry. All replies above this message were on the first version of the map, and were taken into account while making the version you see now. Hopefully this one fairs better than the last, but i'm always looking for opinions to improve my work.
     
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