Leaderboard Organization

pookeythekid · Nov 10, 2015

So, at least in my opinion (just after seeing Admiral's thread I'm not using the generic term lol), Capture the Flag is a team game and it's about capturing flags. It's not all about the kills. And yet the leaderboards, at least the home page of them, are based entirely on the number of kills that people have. This seems to encourage people trying to get as many kills as possible to get their names on the top 50 of the board. So, just my question here: why can't leaderboards be based on captures instead?

@NomNuggetNom

kthxbai

Edit: refer to my post below for more details.

MrWaffleman · Nov 10, 2015

I do agree with the leaderboards mostly leaning over to the player achievement side, although there IS a "caps" section in the stats section if you look closely (it's cluttered :v), as well as recovs. The rest are player-based, if you have any other features that you would want be added, that would be cool .

EDIT: I fully understood what this thread was about by reading Roke's response .-.

Lord_Roke · Nov 10, 2015

By clicking on the headers of the different statistics you can sort the leader board based on that statistic. Means there are actually multiple leaderboards, one for each statistics. 'Kills' is just the default statistic the leader board is sorted by, this default statistic could be changed.

Ducksfan101 · Nov 10, 2015

This is why a tie-breaker in a public match shouldn't be about kills.

Lord_Byzantine · Nov 10, 2015

why not make a leaderboard for hearts healed maybe that'll actually encourage medics to heal their teammates...

iMuffles · Nov 11, 2015

Lord_Roke said: ↑

By clicking on the headers of the different statistics you can sort the leader board based on that statistic. Means there are actually multiple leaderboards, one for each statistics. 'Kills' is just the default statistic the leader board is sorted by, this default statistic could be changed.
Click to expand...

That's exactly his point, have it be sorted by caps on default.

Deppuccino · Nov 11, 2015

Do what MCPVP did and make stats for everything, from sponge launches to pyro instas.

BAWSS5 · Nov 11, 2015

*ahem* stats are useless *ahem*

Proterozoic · Nov 11, 2015

I can understand why you think it should be that way round. In my opinion, i don't really think it should matter too much. It's already been said click the headers and you get the leaderboard for that stat. It's not like it changes anything, just the names that first show up. People already know not to take stats at first value anyway. I can understand the logic behind this, but wouldn't the attention be better spent fixing more important things?

pookeythekid · Nov 11, 2015

@MrWaffleman @Lord_Roke @LordChaos_92

I'm aware that a. stats are nowhere near the most important thing in CTF, and b. that the boards can be sorted around with a few clicks of buttons. And I know that many would agree. But think of the newbies who just discovered the stats page. They see:

Note the five archer mains in this list. Archer is insta-kill and long-ranged, and, as has been covered a kajillion times in other threads, can achieve large killstreaks while remaining generally untouched, allowing for many more kills than other classes. This is not an anti-archer thread, so don't go off on me about that; my point is that archer, for example, is one of the kill-farming classes, so players who care too much about stats seeing high-kill names branded on the front page of CTF stats (especially archers) leads them to try to put their names there. As a result, you have that many more people trying to kill everything they see in the regular game (also especially archers).

You probably ask, "Why does it matter when you know you can just switch the stats around by clicking the headers?" Personally, I don't give a crap about the thousands of kills of those people on the top 50 kills leaderboards. But others do. And when they see the above picture when they click to the CTF stats, they think: "I want my name to be plastered at the top of the board as the 'best CTFer'". It's not a matter of clicking around to view the stats for what they're really worth (if anything, @BAWSS5); it's a matter of having your name pop up for thousands of people to see. People are prideful and selfish, it's what they want.

Secondly, one may also question the effect it would have on the number of kill-farmers in the game. Being completely honest, I doubt there would be a significant decrease in people who play the game wrong, mainly because most of the newbies who go around random-killing haven't even discovered the stats page, anyway. But think of those times when you got headshotted with the flag by a random-killer who wasn't even looking for a recovery shot. Even those who don't cap much, like me, have had it happen at least 50 times or so. Perhaps 3/5 of those times, that "recovery" shot was due to a meaningless kill-farm shot. That number might go down to 1/5 to measure how many times a kill-farmer who was looking for "stats" was responsible for my death while I was carrying the flag. (The last 1/5 composes archers who are actually doing their jobs.) So, 1/5 of 50 is 10. Would it not be a great thing if 10 out of 50 times, you were not headshotted with the flag for the wrong reason? And think of every other class, like pyro and assassin--yes, I'm mainly targeting insta-kill classes here. I can't name those statistics as accurately since I don't have as much experience with them, but you get the idea.

Finally, what's there not to like about morality? Those who work the hardest performing the game's proper purpose should be rewarded for it. If I were a random person clicking to "Capture the Flag" on that stats page, I would expect the goal of the game to be capturing flags, and therefore I would expect to see the leaders of the board having the highest number of flag captures. The number of kills one has is not only irrelevant to the name and purpose of the game, but should not be rewarded on top of those who have served the game in the way it should be played.

And then a random note that totally does not flow with the rest of the argument:

Lord_Roke said: ↑

'Kills' is just the default statistic the leader board is sorted by, this default statistic could be changed.
Click to expand...

I agree.

BAWSS5 · Nov 11, 2015

spookeythekid said: ↑

@MrWaffleman @Lord_Roke @LordChaos_92

I'm aware that a. stats are nowhere near the most important thing in CTF, and b. that the boards can be sorted around with a few clicks of buttons. And I know that many would agree. But think of the newbies who just discovered the stats page. They see:
View attachment 27389
Note the five archer mains in this list. Archer is insta-kill and long-ranged, and, as has been covered a kajillion times in other threads, can achieve large killstreaks while remaining generally untouched, allowing for many more kills than other classes. This is not an anti-archer thread, so don't go off on me about that; my point is that archer, for example, is one of the kill-farming classes, so players who care too much about stats seeing high-kill names branded on the front page of CTF stats (especially archers) leads them to try to put their names there. As a result, you have that many more people trying to kill everything they see in the regular game (also especially archers).

You probably ask, "Why does it matter when you know you can just switch the stats around by clicking the headers?" Personally, I don't give a crap about the thousands of kills of those people on the top 50 kills leaderboards. But others do. And when they see the above picture when they click to the CTF stats, they think: "I want my name to be plastered at the top of the board as the 'best CTFer'". It's not a matter of clicking around to view the stats for what they're really worth (if anything, @BAWSS5); it's a matter of having your name pop up for thousands of people to see. People are prideful and selfish, it's what they want.

Secondly, one may also question the effect it would have on the number of kill-farmers in the game. Being completely honest, I doubt there would be a significant decrease in people who play the game wrong, mainly because most of the newbies who go around random-killing haven't even discovered the stats page, anyway. But think of those times when you got headshotted with the flag by a random-killer who wasn't even looking for a recovery shot. Even those who don't cap much, like me, have had it happen at least 50 times or so. Perhaps 3/5 of those times, that "recovery" shot was due to a meaningless kill-farm shot. That number might go down to 1/5 to measure how many times a kill-farmer who was looking for "stats" was responsible for my death while I was carrying the flag. (The last 1/5 composes archers who are actually doing their jobs.) So, 1/5 of 50 is 10. Would it not be a great thing if 10 out of 50 times, you were not headshotted with the flag for the wrong reason? And think of every other class, like pyro and assassin--yes, I'm mainly targeting insta-kill classes here. I can't name those statistics as accurately since I don't have as much experience with them, but you get the idea.

Finally, what's there not to like about morality? Those who work the hardest performing the game's proper purpose should be rewarded for it. If I were a random person clicking to "Capture the Flag" on that stats page, I would expect the goal of the game to be capturing flags, and therefore I would expect to see the leaders of the board having the highest number of flag captures. The number of kills one has is not only irrelevant to the name and purpose of the game, but should not be rewarded on top of those who have served the game in the way it should be played.

And then a random note that totally does not flow with the rest of the argument:

I agree.
Click to expand...

I'm just going to say that I saw the words 'prideful' and 'selfish' in that paragraph while I was quickly scrolling through it to find where you mentioned my name

Anyways, on top of what all you said, the fact is that stats can be thrown off by a few savvy killfarmers who know how to bring themselves up into the leaderboards without doing anything obvious like a 30/1 kdr or a 200 killstreak. They truely are just a method of promoting pride and selfishness in a game that so many people have said requires teamwork.

ACE_BLUE2 · Nov 11, 2015

Ik ctf isn't all about kills, and I try to play as objectively as I can. But, you all have to admit, over 22,000 kills already is pretty insane @LordChaos_92 , just from one archer to another
Also @junebugulas for being the number 1 capper on ctf!

Proterozoic · Nov 11, 2015

oBlueo said: ↑

Ik ctf isn't all about kills, and I try to play as objectively as I can. But, you all have to admit, over 22,000 kills already is pretty insane @LordChaos_92 , just from one archer to another
Also @junebugulas for being the number 1 capper on ctf!
Click to expand...

well, unfortunately it comes with the good and bad. People praise it, which is really nice and I greatly appreciate it. Unfortunately people also condemn you for not being part of the game, when in fact you can do both pretty effectively. People do also get the wrong idea that you're better than you are. I'm going to keep doing what I like to do because I find it is fun, but I hope people don't think that I'm just mindlessly killing. I'm doing it for my fun of practising archery, as well as sniping the people that matter to the game, and I don't see why people shouldn't be able to do both. Thank you for saying what you did!

On another note, I think since the name of the game is capture the flag, logic would suggest it would be best to have the first stat be the number of captures

diamond989 · Nov 24, 2015

I really liked it back when there was the Overall leaderboard for Caps , Kills , Recoverys and I think there was also killstreaks. Also how it was either overall or specific classes and it was better that way IMO.
@NomNuggetNom

BrandinoB · Nov 24, 2015

pookeythekid said: ↑

@MrWaffleman @Lord_Roke @LordChaos_92

I'm aware that a. stats are nowhere near the most important thing in CTF, and b. that the boards can be sorted around with a few clicks of buttons. And I know that many would agree. But think of the newbies who just discovered the stats page. They see:
View attachment 27389
Note the five archer mains in this list. Archer is insta-kill and long-ranged, and, as has been covered a kajillion times in other threads, can achieve large killstreaks while remaining generally untouched, allowing for many more kills than other classes. This is not an anti-archer thread, so don't go off on me about that; my point is that archer, for example, is one of the kill-farming classes, so players who care too much about stats seeing high-kill names branded on the front page of CTF stats (especially archers) leads them to try to put their names there. As a result, you have that many more people trying to kill everything they see in the regular game (also especially archers).

You probably ask, "Why does it matter when you know you can just switch the stats around by clicking the headers?" Personally, I don't give a crap about the thousands of kills of those people on the top 50 kills leaderboards. But others do. And when they see the above picture when they click to the CTF stats, they think: "I want my name to be plastered at the top of the board as the 'best CTFer'". It's not a matter of clicking around to view the stats for what they're really worth (if anything, @BAWSS5); it's a matter of having your name pop up for thousands of people to see. People are prideful and selfish, it's what they want.

Secondly, one may also question the effect it would have on the number of kill-farmers in the game. Being completely honest, I doubt there would be a significant decrease in people who play the game wrong, mainly because most of the newbies who go around random-killing haven't even discovered the stats page, anyway. But think of those times when you got headshotted with the flag by a random-killer who wasn't even looking for a recovery shot. Even those who don't cap much, like me, have had it happen at least 50 times or so. Perhaps 3/5 of those times, that "recovery" shot was due to a meaningless kill-farm shot. That number might go down to 1/5 to measure how many times a kill-farmer who was looking for "stats" was responsible for my death while I was carrying the flag. (The last 1/5 composes archers who are actually doing their jobs.) So, 1/5 of 50 is 10. Would it not be a great thing if 10 out of 50 times, you were not headshotted with the flag for the wrong reason? And think of every other class, like pyro and assassin--yes, I'm mainly targeting insta-kill classes here. I can't name those statistics as accurately since I don't have as much experience with them, but you get the idea.

Finally, what's there not to like about morality? Those who work the hardest performing the game's proper purpose should be rewarded for it. If I were a random person clicking to "Capture the Flag" on that stats page, I would expect the goal of the game to be capturing flags, and therefore I would expect to see the leaders of the board having the highest number of flag captures. The number of kills one has is not only irrelevant to the name and purpose of the game, but should not be rewarded on top of those who have served the game in the way it should be played.

And then a random note that totally does not flow with the rest of the argument:

I agree.
Click to expand...

LOL didn't even realize I was top 10 xDD oops. Oh and I only partially main archer now c: I only play it on certain maps like Blackout and VOR. Rest of the time I'll play some other class :I

If you ask me, if @NomNuggetNom would be up to it or one of the other coders that I have no idea who they are and the Brawl Committee/Owner/whoever agrees, I would try to make the stats like MCPVP stats. It's much more organized, easier to maneuver, had a better comments section for players, it was just overall nicer and easier to use/see.

I do agree with the whole "shouldn't be based on kills" though. @Ducksfan101 IMO a tie should end with a 5 minute team death match, those who die will be put in spectator mode. Might be dominated by instakills, but it'd be fun and cool. Or could make it so it's like everyone's a single class.

Quick random input, look at the kdr stats xD 46/50 people/whatever alts on those leaderboards have less than 20 deaths. That's quite sad/ridiculous imo. Should be made so they must have like at least 50 deaths :I k done with random input!

Ducksfan101 · Nov 24, 2015

BrandinoB said: ↑

I do agree with the whole "shouldn't be based on kills" though. @Ducksfan101 IMO a tie should end with a 5 minute team death match, those who die will be put in spectator mode. Might be dominated by instakills, but it'd be fun and cool. Or could make it so it's like everyone's a single class.
Click to expand...

Imo this is an excellent idea only if everyone went the same class. and which ever team gets the cap first wins

sp00ky101 · Nov 25, 2015

Ducksfan101 said: ↑

if everyone went the same class.
Click to expand...

Fashionista best choice.

pookeythekid · Nov 25, 2015

BrandinoB said: ↑

LOL didn't even realize I was top 10 xDD oops. Oh and I only partially main archer now c: I only play it on certain maps like Blackout and VOR. Rest of the time I'll play some other class :I

If you ask me, if @NomNuggetNom would be up to it or one of the other coders that I have no idea who they are and the Brawl Committee/Owner/whoever agrees, I would try to make the stats like MCPVP stats. It's much more organized, easier to maneuver, had a better comments section for players, it was just overall nicer and easier to use/see.

I do agree with the whole "shouldn't be based on kills" though. @Ducksfan101 IMO a tie should end with a 5 minute team death match, those who die will be put in spectator mode. Might be dominated by instakills, but it'd be fun and cool. Or could make it so it's like everyone's a single class.

Quick random input, look at the kdr stats xD 46/50 people/whatever alts on those leaderboards have less than 20 deaths. That's quite sad/ridiculous imo. Should be made so they must have like at least 50 deaths :I k done with random input!
Click to expand...

Ah, I kind of otherwise only saw you as ninja or chemist, thought you were still like 70% archer.

For the tie breaker, I'd suggest an all-heavy, first-cap-wins match. This should still be on a five-minute timer though, and have the tiebreaker for the tiebreaker (no caps) be STEALS. Then if the steals happen to be tied, THEN it may be determined by the amount of kills. I say all-heavy match because in my opinion no match can be more balanced: no one has insane health pools, pvp comes purely down to skill because no one gets instakilled or 2-or3-hit killed. No one has any advantage other than skill (well, both individual skill and the skill of your teammates).

ASAP_Quan · Nov 25, 2015

Dis thread locked my thread... whatevr.
I agree with @BrandinoB with the deathmatch thing, that would be a fine idea.

_Enderfire1602 · Nov 26, 2015

There should be a leaderboard for capping, and a leaderboard for kills.
Or either just take out kills and put a leaderboard for capping.

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Leaderboard Organization

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