Comparing Elf and Soldier

But you failed to see that I'm 1337

I don't get why you said that though :/ What was I wrong about

 

I know you guys are pissed off at the Elf nerf, but remember, Nom can't fix everything at once.

Nom's first priority is nerfing overpowered aspects of the game. Even if the overpowered mechanic is attached to an underpowered class, it still has to go.

Think of it this way: it's better for Elf to be underpowered for a few weeks than it is for all the other issues in the game to still exist. Nom is tackling the big problems first so the game is at least PLAYABLE before he buffs the Underpowered classes.

That said, Elf does need a buff of some sort in the future, but imo it's still playable, even if getting away is a lot harder. It's nowhere near being seriously viable, but it's still fun.

 

I honestly agree soldiers nerf was necessary, pyros nerf is...interesting to say the least, I like the idea of true damage. Chemists nerf was absolutely needed due to the major health pool and made it almost impossible to kill if its a smart chemist with medic teaming. Elves nerf was not needed at all considering you run out of 10 arrows rather quickly before the nerf. I do think medics need a tiny nerf, the nerf would be that they cant resupply certain things(arrows specifically) and that they cant heal other medics. Medic teaming is the 2nd cheapest thing in the game besides ghost capping.

 

I think you meant engineers for #1, but I agree with everything else.

 

So how about he fixes the overpowered mechanic of say, the entire classes of engineer and dwarf instead of taking out the single quality that makes a low-armour, low-DPS class worth playing? How about he fixes the "overpowered aspect" in soldier that still remains even with the mostly inconsequential nerf (I'd argue soldier's still a better capping/mobility class than elf without the wind nerf). How about he fixes the unpreventable ranged instakills that archer provides, or the fact that medic teams are still probably the most broken thing in CTF?

Wind element is far down on the priority list. I'm pretty sure this nerf was only implemented so that soldier still remains the best capping class by a large margin: removing its primary counter in pyro, "nerf" that did nearly nothing to affect anyone decent at the class, making its competition in elf weak. And let's not forget that our coder mains soldier.

 

just knock out 2 birds with 1 stone remove elf as a class and replace archer's hs mechanic with elf pure element. broken instakill gets removed and u dont have to worry about some dum nerdy class getting buffed, and to replace elfs removal actually give the ctf team time to work on a class.

 

Explain how you would rework Engineer, Dwarf, and Archer, and then explain how Nom's going to fix them all.

The Wind Element nerf was needed, and I can't imagine it took Nom very long for the staff to come up with a nerf and implement it.

Besides the Pyro rework and the Assassin Inventory system, most of the changes in the updates are mostly small details.

So now that we've explained why the Wind Element nerf is easy, let's talk about the big issues. First, what exactly is wrong about Archer, Dwarf, and Engineer? Secondly, how would you rework them? Dwarf and Engineer almost definitely need a complete overhaul, and any change to Archer is going to have to be carefully considered as well. Third, how do you implement these changes into the game. Do you think reworking an entire class is easy to code? I've done a bit of C++ before for a summer course, and our goal was trying to get a ball on a screen to interact with another ball to stimulate gravity. I tried implementing the tiniest feature where if you hit a button the simulation would reset, and that took so long to get in without any flaws.

Now realize that CTF is a much more complicated thing, a plugin of a fairly unoptimized game, running on an extremely terrible language for games. Do you think it's easy to implement a full rework for classes opposed to nerfing Wind Element? Yes, there are still some huge issues in the game, but they're not so easy to fix, and personally they're not too game-breaking (no one plays Engie, and both Engie and Dwarf are banned in matches. Archer is annoying, but most of the time you can avoid their arrows if you pay attention. The only issue is casual Dwarves, and tbh they're not that bad unless there's 3 of them, which is rare in casual games).

So yeah. Yes, an Archer/Dwarf/Engie rework is needed, but they're going to be much harder to rework than a simple nerf to the Wind Element. Trust that the coders and devs know what they're doing.

 

I don't think it was needed at all. I didn't see anyone complaining about elf being "OP", and it was only shoehorned in so that soldier would remain superior.

We both know what's wrong with these classes, and there are dozens of reworks out there on the forums that would both balance and make the classes interesting. But the staff seems to have a burning hatred for using community reworks, no matter how well received.

I'm not the one getting paid to do coding.

One decent engi with good turret placement and you've got people teleporting right next to your base every 3 seconds. Two decent archers in any team match and it's near-impossible to get anywhere on offence. One dwarf that knows how to block and a well-suited flagroom and there's no point even trying offence.

Considering what they've done to chemist, pyro, and now elf - no, I don't trust they know what they're doing at all.

 

1. How the @*%])&#*^ was the elf nerf needed? No offense.
2. With any coding skill in the first place, plugins are quite doable with the very convenient BukkitAPI. Nom's gotta be a good coder, and I'm sure reworks aren't the most difficult thing to do.
3. You seemed to argue against AND in slight favor of archer, but I'll leave this at my own view: archer is very broken with instakills, but an entire rework should not be necessary; just change what happens when people get hit at headshot range. I've seen a really amazing rework before that had headshots set people to low health, give them poison, then allow them to steak fast or die.

You'd be missing both birds entirely no matter how many stones you throw. Making archer need more than one arrow, let alone THREE, to be effective, defeats the role of the class as the Safety (American football). Elf is in no way a second archer class; it's more like a very skilled mage without a ridiculous health pool that can capture flags WITHOUT a nerf, the latter being contrary to archer. Granted, the class COULD be removed with its role in the game somewhat being dominated by soldier and with no secondary role to fill instead, but you're helping no one by removing it. The class can't even be abused and therefore isn't broken; spamming wind element doesn't get you far, the shield doesn't last very long and is useless anyway, pure element takes skill to use and can't be spammed anyway, and earth element spam is generally easy to avoid if you don't run in a straight line--unlike archer, if you get hit once or even a few times, you're still alive.

 

1. For the last time, and I'll say it again: Elf does not need a nerf, but Wind Element does. Yes, thanks to the nerf, Elf has been gimped to a very large degree. It definitely needs some kind of buff in the future. But to stay off, remove the unbalanced factors of the class.

When rebalancing it's always better to make something underpowered opposed to making something overpowered. I'd nerf the Wind Element first, and from there see how Elves play with the Wind Element nerf and buff everything else accordingly.

2. That doesn't change the fact that nerfing Wind Element is still easier to do that reworking other classes. You could argue "there hasn't been an update in forever, Nom should've been able to code in everything now", and tbh I can't argue against that. But I don't know what it's like for the Brawl staff, and as I said I'm inexperienced with Minecraft plugins, so I guess I can't argue here.

3. My thoughts on Archer: the class is overpowered, but there are ways to fix it without removing instant kills. The problem about Archer is that it can spam long range instant kills. Instant Kills themself have a lot of depth imo. A lot of my favorite games have Instant Kill classes or weapons or abilities, and even when I'm not using one of the Instant Kills, the game is still fun and exciting. Instant Kills create tension; do I want to walk in the open? I might get sniped! What if there's an Assassin about to destroy me?

But yeah. Archer spams long range instant kills that can kill you before you even know they're there, and that's one of the most overpowered things ever. Not only that, but the class is very hard to kill, due to its decent Armor:Steak ratio and Punch 2 bow. I agree, Archer is overpowered. Archer needs to be less spammable, easier to avoid if you know they're there, and be easier to kill. But the ability to Instant Kill itself is fine.

 

you sir are indeed a noob because if you knew anything about being an archer or fighting against one you would know archer isnt as op as babies think it is. Only the scrub archers spam arrows long range(archers who spawn camp enemy team deserve to be kicked). There is easy way to avoid archer, its called dodging, only archer you probably cant dodge for very long is brandino. Archer sucks in pvp as a matter of fact any class can kill it rather easily if they know how to strafe. Only pro archers are op because they know how to use it. This archer op discussion is crap when it is completely fair, especially when it is still one of the only defenses against infernal soldiers and other flag cappers. Punch 2 is quite necessary when it is used to defend a base. Anyways, thats my little rant.

 

any class with ranged unpreventable instakills is not balanced

 

it can be prevented, its called not getting hit by the arrow :O

 

Calling someone a "noob" who doesn't know anything isn't going to help your argument at all.

While the Archer isn't Dwarf or pre-nerf Chemist/Pyro, it's definitely on the stronger side.

I've mained Archer since 2013 and it's a very versatile class. I don't usually have a huge issue personally about Archer, but they are very annoying to deal with for certain classes. This is because of Quickdraw and Bow Spam. Very rarely as Archer do I die to anything but other Archers, and this is because it's too easy to react and kill enemies, or at the very least retreat.

The Archer is pretty good at PvP. It has the 4th best Armor (if you ignore Necros, because no one plays Necro), has 4 Steaks, and a Punch 2 Bow. That's an easy win against Ninja and Assassin (unless you get Insta killed), the main classes that will be getting close to Archer. If you're letting any other classes get close to you on a regular basis, you're not playing Archer properly. And even then, Punch 2 can save you unless it's a Mage or Elf. The problem is, a single arrow connecting will send an enemy extremely far away. Any decent Archer at close range will likely hit even the best strafers at least once with a bow. And they don't even need to kill the enemy to win the fight. If a Heavy is really right in front of an Archer, will the Heavy out damage the Archer and win? Yeah, eventually. But the Archer doesn't need to fight someone to the death. Hit them once with the Punch 2 bow, and then leave. There's no reason trying to waste time on an idiot chasing you, because you can just retreat or find a new position to Snipe more people from. You're usually on your team's side of the map, chances are there's going to be someone to deal with your pursuer for you.

At long range, bow spam may be easy to dodge, but the fact is that every once in a while an arrow WILL hit you, and you'll die. Literal bow spam is a nooby technique, but even a good Archer knows when to choose quantity over quality. The Archer can absolutely demolish a crowd of people at long range with bow spam. Spam Arrows at a bunch of people chasing a flag carrier and I can guarantee they'll kill someone. Archer isn't meant to be a CC class; it's meant to pick off enemies at long range and defend open spaces. But yet, the class can shoot Arrows at a group of people to very quickly destroy their numbers.

And spamming doors also gets unfair free kills. If you spam chokepoints as Archer, you'll kill people who were unfortunate enough to walk into an alley you started spamming in. There's really nothing you can do about it on the receiving end; sometimes, an Archer pre-fires or spams once they see your name through a wall, and you'll walk right into death. If I don't immediately see any enemies, I spam long range doors; quite often, I kill someone, because you can't anticipate stuff like that happening.

I'm an Archer main, and I think the class needs a rework. Again, I'm not saying Instant Kills should be removed from it (although it seems like Chap wants them gone), but Instant Kill bow spam should. It doesn't matter if it's a "nooby" technique, it's easy to abuse and kills even the best players because sometimes you walk around a corner and get hit by something you couldn't have seen coming.

Is Archer the most broken class in the game that ruins the entirety of CTF? No. But it is unbalanced, and it has a very low skill floor for anyone who has the slightest idea of how to use a bow. My friend who barely plays CTF can walk in and get tons of kills and recoveries as Archer, just because. I'm sure many people with decent bow skill can do the same without actually knowing what's going on in the game, just because the Archer is so easy to use at a basic level. Yes, there is a ton of skill you can invest into the class to make it good, but even with very little experience the class is very effective.

 

"death can be avoided, it's called not dying"

Getting headshotted is usually inevitable if you don't see the archer who's shooting at you; 90% or more of the time, you don't.

And please, don't say archer is balanced and fair. I'm assuming you're being very biased in your argument, but whether or not you are, consider this: the ability to instantly kill large numbers of people from a range at which there is no risk of taking damage or dying yourself, with most of your targets helpless to avoid their deaths by your arrows--is that seriously balanced or fair?

 

70% of the time archers miss, when its brandino its 60% of the time.

And to your balanced notion, archer was made for offense and defense, killing as much of offense and defense as possible to help the flag defense, and to help flag carriers. Its not like chemist which was made for supportng but became a solo capping class with a huge health pool till recently, even now its still op with meds. You seem to think sniping people from far away is easy to do as well, either you are really good at archer or youve never played it. Archer takes timing, aiming, and luck to get kills. I have only seen brand get 25ks as archers of late, back in mcpvp time you could get above 50ks easy(i do realize this is mostly due to the 20 minute time difference back then)

Archer is balanced and it wont get nerfed because it isnt op, and if it is op, its the least of any ctf problems. Sorry to say this, but it would take a severe stupid move to nerf archer. You may as well nerf heavy as well.

 

First: 70% misses highly depends on the archer.
Second but just as important as first: Brandino misses 1% of the time xD (@BrandinoB)

Other than the fact that earlier in this thread you used the argument that Punch 2 helps on defense, indicating that your definition of defense is core defense near the flag and thus creating a flaw in the argument quoted above -- other than that, all of these roles can indeed be filled by archer. But what does that have to do with balance? If anything, that makes it overpowered-ly versatile because it's highly effective in every one of those roles (except core defense; defensive support is what it's good for.

Aim 'n' shoot bro, aim 'n' shoot. After a few thousand repetitions, trained archers do tend to find it easy.

Well... I don't like to brag, but since you give me only two options... the first one.

Timing: does not take years to master.
Aiming: practice and you'll get good at it.
Luck: primarily involved in archer fights, long-distance out-of-render blind-shots, and in the least likely case: your target both sees you and is very good at strafing.

I won't even quote the whole sentence. The fact that a 25 kill streak is even possible is overpowered and stupid. What does it tell you that the old pyro and the archer classes are the ones that most often get kill streaks above 20? (hint: they're both instant kill and simple to use! that was a big hint...)

And finally, I'm too lazy to quote the last part. Archer is not balanced and is certainly OP. I agree with you in that a nerf to archer would be a bad call by Brawl (even worse than the elf nerf), but a quality rework would be fantastic. As I said earlier,

I forgot what this thread was, but I'd actually like to see it again. @Admiral_Munson you were involved in that thread, perhaps you could give the link? cc:

 

Does that mean@NomNuggetNom is the Hillary Clinton of CTF? Down with him!

(@pookeythekid I think this is the thread you were referencing)

 

i'm not american so i dont know who or what a hilary clinton is

but sure, whatever you say!