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Idea Ninja Glowstone Dust Tweak

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by Plautius, Jan 2, 2016.

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  1. Plautius

    Plautius Well-Known Member

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    Hi!

    Yet another post concerning the updates due to the kindness of Brawl's coders.

    Back when @Billhelm's ninja rework was introduced, glowstone dust got added to ninja to prevent excessive 414. This hasn't been changed through the update, but has been tweaked a bit: you could go invisible after killing someone instantly, before, which is now no longer able.

    The reason I liked the old ways better is because it made ninja offense useful. As ninja, you could kill a defending ninja or assassin and go invisible again without being dead. Now, once you're in the flagroom, you are guaranteed to die after your first kill.

    Ninja offense is fairly hard already, considering you are generally outnumbered and can't kill a pyro as quickly as e. g. a ninja.

    This role was made a lot harder through this small tweak, which is why I propose to reverse it.

    Opinions?

    (Edit only concerning orthography)
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 2
    #1 Plautius, Jan 2, 2016
  2. Sir_Inge

    Sir_Inge Well-Known Member

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    Well, I guess ninja actually isn't meant really for offense.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
    #2 Sir_Inge, Jan 2, 2016
  3. cutwell

    cutwell Active Member

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    Its a good idea, I haven't played CTF lately, but when I do I prefer Ninja class.
    You make a good point, what your describing would definitely make the game harder, but it also balances the class, making it less OP.
    Pre-Update, the Ninja could, as you said, kill a player then go invisible. This however makes one player able to take down several players before being revealed, making it over powered.

    I assume the update has other reasons to it, its unlike the Dev's to just alter a class for no reason, perhaps it'll change at a future point but for now just try to adapt to the changes.
     
    #3 cutwell, Jan 2, 2016
  4. Plautius

    Plautius Well-Known Member

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    @cutwell a class is not by default overpowered if it can kill multiple people or everyone should have a 1 or worse KDR, and archer, pyro and engineer were long banned.

    Ninja just required a more alert defense before. It's not like defense didn't have the possibility of killing the offense ninja before as no class in CTF is instantly killable to a ninja. That's the point where skill comes into play, and skill is, in most PvP-games, directly rewarded with the ability to kill more players and die less often.
    You also just called ninja OP and unbalanced before without giving any reason to do so.

    The update has no other apparent reason to it as I can think of no other possible scenario in which this might come into play, and I daresay - forgive my arrogance - that I spend enough time on CTF to do so.
    Because it seems like such a small thing that could have slipped in by accident, I decided to make this post anyway because "adapting to the changes" is not possible as this is - plainly - a nerf, not a change. I am just limited in my roles and possibilities for the worse, as opposed to e. g. pyro now that would indeed need a certain level of adjustment now that instakill has been replaced.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    #4 Plautius, Jan 2, 2016
  5. cutwell

    cutwell Active Member

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    As @Sir_Inge said, the ninja isn't an offensive class, and anyway, the Nerf is probably because with the way Ninja was designed by the Dev's to be played in a different play style to yours, and so the update doesn't help you but may make it more fair.
     
    #5 cutwell, Jan 2, 2016
  6. Plautius

    Plautius Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but I just won't argue with you any further. You have three minutes of Brawl CTF playtime consisting of zero kills and one death, are not on a team therefore can't be a good regular from McPvP just not active on Brawl and are trying to tell me what ninja is and isn't. Ninja offense is a role used in team matches, the official thingies where the pros play.
    The Devs (leave out that damn apostrophe there, it's just wrong) did not PM you the meaning of ninja either. My ninja playstyle does not revolve around using it offensively but I realize ninja is a class that has indeed also been used as offense, strategically.

    Here's why:
    If you want to steal the flag in a match, you did (until now) usually try out soldier eventually, but the problem is the pyro, and how can you kill a pyro? Assassin. Assassins were targeted by roaming ninja defense to prevent the pyro from dying. What can get past a ninja quietly and still kill the pyro? Ninja. There, I reasoned ninja offense.

    Also, it still does not make ninja more fair. Multiple roles aren't OPness, multiple roles are multiple possibilities to be used separately and not at the same time. It's not like ninja offense makes a recovery ninja any stronger versus that pyro coming in, right? Just like the possibility to ninja defend doesn't make that enemy pyro more dead.

    I consider it an insult you are trying to tell me what ninja is for and isn't for.

    @Sir_Inge is a CTF hardliner I have not replied to with a reason, he (as some other forums ranters) likes to fit stuff for his own well-being and because he unfortunately does not play ninja on a regular basis, he wants to limit it. Ninja only for defense purposes is just as stupid as medic just for support purposes. Classes depend on how they are used and of course some are better in some role, but no class should completely outrule certain roles. You can pyro midfield, you can soldier recover, and you can also ninja offend. Sometimes it's the only way to accomplish your goal - stopping a team on blackout's mid, killing that soldier on castle cavern, or taking out that pyro in Parklife.

    As I said, I don't consider it an intended change for now because it just seems too minor and too pointless for me.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    #6 Plautius, Jan 2, 2016
  7. Recovs

    Recovs Unknown Member

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    One thing I've notice is that the timer it takes to get back to redstone when it's glowstone fluctuates. For example, I'll hit a player, which triggers it to go to glowstone, but it takes a while to go back. In other occasions, it's faster to change.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
    #7 Recovs, Jan 2, 2016
  8. cutwell

    cutwell Active Member

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    You make good points, I wasn't trying to insult you, just give an opinion. Anyhow, how to use kits is, as you said, open to interpretation and I was offering my view on why it changed as this thread is marked as a discussion.
    I'm sorry that you find it insulting and you offered your own insults with reference to my play time, etc. I already mentioned that I haven't played for a long time on this account in my original post so I don't have any data to show for it.

    As you pointed out, the Dev's did not PM me the purpose of the Ninja kit, and as you said, the purpose of any kit is open to interpretation. However, and please don't take this in the wrong way, how is my interpretation any more right or wrong than yours?

    I wasn't going to reply but I just wanted to say that I wasn't being insulting, I gave my opinion and you sadly took it more literally than I intended, i'm the last person to force my opinion onto another player and you definitely have more experience than me in CTF.

    Sorry bro for any confusion, hope theres no hard feelings.
     
    #8 cutwell, Jan 3, 2016
  9. Daveeeeeeeee

    Daveeeeeeeee Well-Known Member

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    What is kit?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    #9 Daveeeeeeeee, Jan 3, 2016
  10. Billhelm

    Billhelm Active Member

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    Y0 peepz.
    It's not like i play ctf a lot any more...
    but hey i got mentioned, so why not throwing my bewlshet in as well?

    Defuk jewzt happened!? R u sure they did this intentional?

    Well it's true... when we decided to nerf 414 we added glowstone dust. Everytime ninja hit someone, redstone would turn into glowstone for 1.5secs if I remember correctly, but in case ninja kills someone, it would instantly turn back into redstone, ignoring the 1.5secs.

    This feature was incredible important for me, because I wanted to prevent this:
    Exactly. With this feature taken out, ninja is a lot like assassin on offense.. it's stupid suicide.
    Ninja already lacks some burst anyways.. since they changed critical hits or Sharpness.. i don't remember exactly.
    Ninja used to 2 shot pyros with chemist buffs... now it doesn't.
    With this redstone change you make ninja even less viable as some sort of flagroom clearer or distracter.
    It doesn't change anything about ninjas ability to perform op captures becauses of it's disgusting mobility.

    So they made it even harder to get rid of typical instakill defenses, while keeping ninjas ability to cap within seconds and no one else but other ninjas that could catch up (which is a fact people used to complain soooo much about).
    Great change! Bravo!
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    #10 Billhelm, Jan 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  11. EmperorTrump45

    EmperorTrump45 Dank Memer

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    Meanwhile, somewhere in CTF, Ninjas are still enderpearling 100 blocks across maps...
     
    #11 EmperorTrump45, Jan 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
  12. Bill_D

    Bill_D Active Member

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    Well said Mr Plau. +1
     
    #12 Bill_D, Jan 8, 2016
  13. obikenobi21

    obikenobi21 Delta Force Jedi

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    When was this changed?
     
    #13 obikenobi21, Jan 8, 2016
  14. Quarrelt

    Quarrelt Genetic co-leader | team!

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    Unintentional bug^^
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    #14 Quarrelt, Jan 8, 2016
  15. Recovs

    Recovs Unknown Member

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    Here's the problem, it's not always 1.5 seconds. In some occasions, it takes longer.
     
    #15 Recovs, Jan 8, 2016
  16. Billhelm

    Billhelm Active Member

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    Sounds lovely <<333
     
    #16 Billhelm, Jan 8, 2016
  17. Quarrelt

    Quarrelt Genetic co-leader | team!

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    That would either be you miscounting or lag.
     
    #17 Quarrelt, Jan 8, 2016
  18. ASAP_Quan

    ASAP_Quan Active Member

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    omg billi iz back... maybe

    Anyway, I never really found out about this bug, tbh it doesn't affect me
     
    #18 ASAP_Quan, Jan 9, 2016
  19. Recovs

    Recovs Unknown Member

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    Trust me, it's neither.
     
    #19 Recovs, Jan 9, 2016
  20. TheMaelstromsEye

    TheMaelstromsEye Well-Known Member

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    Well, im new to the server, but i know a strategy that works well with the new tweak. Its called using eggs, I almost always get a kill when i do eggs and after i get the kill i use said eggs to hit anyone nearby so i can go invis.
     
    #20 TheMaelstromsEye, Jan 10, 2016
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