The Concept of Roles

Interesting. Seems to only happen in one in a million games, specifically those which involve hordes of archers shooting crap everywhere at once.

Sorry for sounding rude, btw, I'm not being spiteful with you. I'm just completely against the idea of elf being an actual archer counter, because although the developers may have made it that way (lol it's also supposed to be a soldier counter with its earth element, and although the earth element works well on soldiers, it does so little damage it's not useful without teamwork), it does not fulfill that role nearly as well as it performs other roles. This, combined with the fact that other classes do a far better job at countering archer (other archers, ninjas, and why the heck did I forget to include mages at first), makes elf a relatively very ineffective archer counter.

 

Medic: Anything and everything :^ ) (Especially support)
would that be considered bias? I don't know, its just an opinion anyways x'D

 

Well I guess "core defense" and "midfield" technically involves killing people.... so maybe there should be some medic-specific categories: core defense support, and midfield support! xD

 

defense support
recovery support
offense support
flag support (eh same as offense/defense but ya know)
support support
spawn support
moral support
spam support
hacking suppor---- i mean what @Shelbzb00

 

everything after flag support imo xD

 

Moral support is actually a key role in all matches, as it allows people to stay in spawn and watch the world burn, whilst they type bland supporting messages like "You can do it!" "Yay!" "Potato!" "Believe!".

 

Exsqueeze you! I think you should quote yourself for that! You soda haxor c:

 

Heavy: Distracting, Recovering off of medic's, Clearing flagrooms (when buffed) and defense
Soldier: Capping, wallspamming
Medic: EZ capping, Anti Pyro, Not healing, Healing.
Archer: Killing random people out of nowhere, flagshooting
Ninja: Ghost Capping, 414'ing, Being **** against stronger classes.
pyro: Defense. Midfielding
Chemist: Jack of all trades, Dying to archers
Elf: Meh. Weaker Jack of all trades master of none.
Enginub: Being proskillz at pissing people off
Necro: Capturing I guess
Mage: Midfielding, recovering off anything til it enters an enclosed space.
Dwarf: Dank defense, Dying to assassins
Fashionista: Being worthless at the one job it is supposed to do.

 

Sorry for the massive text walls incoming!

Spoiler: Archer

I use archer as mainly a midfield / recovery class. Although archer can be extremely helpful in support, it's not a necessary, seeing as a ninja or medic can be just as useful. Archer is also not a very effective capping class, nor is it a very helpful core defense class. Few maps have excessive choke points that one archer can cover completely. Usually archers stand in one spot and fire into one or more choke points, however, I have seen archer used as a mobile midfield class, which can be just as effective. On the maps that do have excessive choke points, or very open gameplay, a well placed and well skilled archer can easily shatter the strongest of offenses. Archer on recovery is extremely helpful with it's ability to headshot any class, and picking off the enemy's support / the enemy flag holder with relative ease in the right situations.

Spoiler: Assassin

I use assassin as an mainly a defensive / recovery / offensive class. Assassin's instakill also puts it in somewhat of the same category as archer. As of defense, assassin is extremely useful, with it's instakill and regenerating speed. It's useful at roaming defense and killing off the offense one by one until they reach the flagroom. It's also useful to have an assassin in the flagroom as core defense, since the offense will 99% of the time have to unblock in the flagroom for higher mobility, giving you a chance to kill them. Assassins nasty trick of hiding behind corners also strikes fear into the heart of a capper, and assassins shadowy tactics allow it the upper hand in nearly every encounter. Assassin on recovery is also extremely useful, especially with it's speed boosts, allowing it to catch up with the flag holder in a short amount of time. Its ability to negate fall damage after the use of its assassinate also allows for new tactics of recovery, and its easy to strafe around the flag holder with your speed. However, one obvious downfall of assassin is its low armor, consisting of only golden boots. On offense, assassin is very useful in clearing flagrooms, and killing dwarves. However, assassin offense is very map based, with some maps allowing assassins easy access to the flagrooms, and other maps where if the team has a roaming defense, the assassin will never touch the flagroom. Although assassin is not a main capping class, it can be used as a capping class in dire situations, however, you are an easy recov by any class, and your main way of attack also leaves you vulnerable to any other type of damage (excluding fall damage). Assassin can be used as a support class, however, I have never seen it used like that much.

Spoiler: Chemist

I use chemist as an defensive / offense / support class. Chemist's potions allow it to fit into almost any situation, although the recent nerf has lowered chemist's power substantially. Chemist is extremely useful on offense for many reasons. It's buffs can give strength, speed, regen, and fire resistance to the rest of the offense, and chemist is a hard counter to assassins, if they know where they are coming from. Chemist's potions also have the ability to harm invis ninjas, allowing chemist to be a counter to any invis camping ninjas, however, this depends on if the chemist has prior knowledge on where the invis ninja is, although some chemist mains have excelled at predicting invis ninjas and assassins. Chemist's range and knockback on its potions allow it to knock away classes like pyro and dwarf (if the dwarf is low levelled) away from the flagpost, and since the potions are AoE, they can knockback multiple core defenders from the flag, allowing another capper to steal, or you the chemist. Chemist is a very useful capping class, however, it's low armor can make it easy prey to a ninja or a heavy. Chemist's high healthpool does counter some of that, even after the nerf, however, chemist's AoE potion effects act as a double edged sword, and you can heal your opponents with your health / regen potions. Chemist relies on keeping it's distance with it's ability to consistently keep up a circle of knockback around him or her, however, it's potions are not fail safe, and they will not always give a large amount of health back. Chemist's potions also make it useful on support, allowing it to heal the capper and its support, and to knockback / slow / poison the recovery, and it's ability to stall and kill invis ninjas and assassins can be essential here. Chemist on defense has it's uses as well, as it can discover invis ninjas, buff the defense, and can tank through most offense if it has support. However, if you use the potions incorrectly, you could end up poisoning the defense instead of poisoning the capper, and your poison can kill the assassins on your team. I have not seen chemist used much as a midfield class, and that is the only role that I don't see chemist really fitting.

Spoiler: Elf

I do not play elf, therefore I cannot give a very detailed explanation on what roles I feel it to play best. However, elf capping does seem to be growing as a viable option for offense, seeing as the wind element allows it to fly over the recov. Other than that, I have a distaste for elf, but I will not further on that.

Spoiler: Heavy

I use heavy as an offense / defensive / recovery class. Heavy has one key ability, and that is having the highest armor in the game. Heavy on offense can be a tank in the flagroom if not taken care of. Having the highest armor value in the game, along with a high damage output, heavy can easily tank through chemists / ninjas / assassins / and pyros. Heavy as a capping class is equally as useful, however it lacks the mobility of ninja / soldier which can leave it vulnerable at certain moments where other classes would not. Heavy's high armor and health pool also makes it a pain to recov off of, especially if it is in a water pool, making recovery nearly impossible. Heavy on defense is useful as well, however, heavy defense is mainly map based, along with heavy offense. Enclosed flagrooms such as Opposites Collide allow heavy to excel, seeing as all the extremely mobile classes will have to funnel into a small room, changing the situation from running in and out, to pvping in and out, and heavy can stop many classes dead in their tracks. Heavy's high armor also allows it to survive multiple waves of offense, and acts as a buffer if all of the less armored classes were killed. Heavy on recov is very situation based, seeing as a heavy could only do decent damage if the capper were in an enclosed room, and most cappers would be outside, allowing them to run from the heavy instead of fighting them. I have not seen heavy used much as midfield, and heavy support is also somewhat situation-based, however it is a strong counter against ninjas and assassins.

Spoiler: Mage

I use mage as a midfield / defensive / recovery / support class. Mage is probably the squishiest class in my opinion, and it can be useful in nearly any situation. Mage is excels at midfielding, seeing as mage will beat nearly any other pvp based class most of the time. In a 1v1, a skilled mage main will 99% of the time come on top of most classes. Mage relies on it's ability to keep its distance from the enemy players, and it's heal spell makes it the only fully self sustaining class in the game. Mage is not as useful in the flagroom rather than outside of it. Mage can easily split up offense, and they can pick off ninjas and assassins, and deal substantial amounts of damage to other classes. It also can split the offense up, not allowing them to go in together, and shattering the effectiveness of the offensive wave. Mage's ability of being able to hit invis ninjas makes it useful in the flagroom, but it's inability to block makes chemist the better choice in the flagroom. Mage is very useful on recovery, seeing as it has a good range of attack. It's flame and ice spells can slow or stop the capper, and it's lightning spell can throw the capper into the void, into the air where they will sustain damage from the fall, back towards the recov, or separate it from the support. However, mage's spells can act as a double edged sword, the same as chemist, as in that the freeze spell can freeze the recovery, or block them from reaching the capper. The lightning can also knock the capper forwards or onto a higher platform. Mage's heal spell is also AoE, and can heal either the recovery or the support. Mage on offense is also useful, and it can lightning people away from the flagroom and flagpost, however, its low armor makes it vulnerable to a surprise attack from a ninja, and it's inability to block makes it prey for assassin. Mage is also very useful on support, and it can split up and pick off the recovery one by one.

Spoiler: Medic

I use medic as a defensive / offensive / support class. Medic has many useful abilities, such as webs, regen, and the ability to heal teamates. On offense, medic can be a very useful capping class. It has 6 steak, allowing it to take a beating, but it does have golden armor. It can web the recovery, but it may end up webbing itself. However, it's main use on offense is the fact that it has a resistance to fire, making it a counter to pyro. Medic is essential on support, seeing as it is the only class that can give back steak, and its 6 steak allows it to survive with the capper for a while. It's snowballs are also useful for webbing the recovery, and if you're lucky, you can kill an assassin by hitting them with a snowball when they use their assassinate. Medic on core defense is extremely useful, seeing as it can heal the defense, allowing the classes to play a bit more aggressive without the fear of dying, and they don't have to waste as much time recuperating from the previous wave. Medic can also web tunnels and entrances into the flagroom, causing offense to either get stuck, or find a different way into the flagroom. I have not seen medic used effectively as a roaming defense class, or a midfield class, and I don't think it would fit those roles at all.

Spoiler: Ninja

I use ninja as a defensive / offensive / support / recovery class. Ninja is probably the most essential defensive class in the game. It's high damage output and constant speed II allows it to strafe around offense and deal tons of damage in the process. Its eggs are useful in blinding, confusing, and slowing the offense, making them easy prey. Its mobility with regenerating enderpearls allows it access to nearly all of the map, and its invis allows it to sneak up on you when you are least expecting it. It is a good counter against offense soldiers, seeing as it can enderpearl up to where a soldier is climbing, and it can cut through an offense of medics / chemists / ninjas like a warm knife through butter. On recovery, ninja is the most viable method of recovering off of a ninja capper, seeing as it is the only class that can match its mobility. Ninja's eggs also are useful at disorienting the capper, and then the ninja can deal tons of damage with its sword, while strafing the capper with its speed II. Its invis also allows it to sneak up on the capper without them knowing, allowing you to surprise them, or have a archer headshot them and you pick it up. You could also try having a mage freeze you inside with the capper, but that is not a very viable way of recovering. Ninja on offense is a scary role. Its speed makes it hard to catch, and it's even harder to catch with its enderpearls. What makes ninja infamous on offense would be its particular ability to ghost cap. A successful ghost cap can secure a cap in seconds, changing the outcome of the game with a few well place and well timed enderpearls. Ninja is also useful for taking out pyros or assassins, with ninja being able to sneak up on them while invis and then launch a surprise attack. Ninja on support is useful, seeing as a ninja can egg away the recovery, and it's high damage allows it to quickly clear through a ninja or assassin. It can also enderpearl to an archer to hit them off or kill them so the capper is safe. I don't use ninja as a midfield class, and I don't see used as a midfield class as much.

Spoiler: Pyro

I use pyro as a defensive / recovery class. Next to ninja, pyro would be the second most essential defensive class. Pyro is useful for crowd control, and its frenzy ability allows it to attack multiple opponents at the same time with a massive fire explosion which sets nearby enemies on fire, and gives a short amount of time in which pyro deals an insane amount of damage to any opponent on fire. It can clear through soldiers and heavies, however, it needs 4 hits to activate frezny (its main attack) which has sometimes disastrous effects, some of which would include ninja cappers who can steal in a matter of seconds, not allowing the pyro enough time to kill them. Not to mention, many times the recovery will swarm the capper, not allowing the pyro to score any hits on the capper. Pyro can deal a substantial amount of damage to an on fire opponent, however this requires the opponent to stay in the flagroom, and most maps give easy escape to soldiers or heavies. Their flint and steel allows them to quickly place down fire, however this can set teamates on fire. Its bow allows it to have a long range fire attack, and it is often more precise than the flint and steel, and the arrow has an AoE which sets players in a small radius around the impact on fire. However, I don't believe this radius still works if you directly hit a player. A pyro that can effective use both flint and bow, however, is a force to be reckoned with. Medic is always a problem to a pyro, and other defense usually targets medics before they enter the flagroom for said reason. Pyro on recov is very useful against heavies and soldiers. The frenzy mode can kill them in seconds, however, water negates the effect of frenzy since they would not be on fire. Pyro can quickly cut through heavy and soldier's high armor and health pool by dealing true damage, not affected by armor value. I haven't seen pyro used much on offense, and support seems out of the question. Midfield may hold some use, but it would be much more effective in the flagroom, where the enemies would be much more concentrated.

Spoiler: Soldier

I use soldier as a defensive / offense / recovery class. Soldier is arguably the most popular capping class, and the most effective. On offense, soldier's abilities to climb walls open up a whole new world of attack strategies, and it's mobility allows it to evade most ground forces. Soldier capping is probably the most favorable way to cap, seeing as it has a high armor value, 4 steak, and its ability to climb walls, making is hard to hit. Soldier can easily pop in a flagroom, steal the flag, and wall climb out to a safe distance away in a matter of seconds. It's wall climb allows it to evade most recovery, but ninjas are often a problem, and the skilled assassin. However, every map has walls which a soldier can climb, giving it an upperhand in most situations. The limit on soldier climb does change gameplay a little, but it is not a substantial change, and allows many soldier mains to keep playing in the same fashion as they did before, just with a few less right clicks. As much as soldier is loved on defense, it can also perform well on defense. Having a soldier on defense is one of the most viable ways of defending against soldiers, seeing as it can match the same mobility of the offensive soldier. Soldier is also a heavy defender, meaning that it can survive a few waves without having to respawn or die in between. Soldier is usually only used on recov against an opposing soldier, however it requires the soldier having little to no support, but it is great at wearing them down to the point where a ninja could kill them in a few hits. It can also force the soldier to move out of their hiding place, allowing an archer to more easily headshot the capper. Soldier doesn't have much of a place in support or midfield, and a soldier is best on roaming defense rather than in the flagroom.

 

I read every word. xD

So pretty much my input:
Archer: I especially agree with that part about mobile midfielding. Imo an archer in one general area is nowhere near as effective as a roaming archer, and position often doesn't matter because of archer's long ranged instant kill.

Elf: heh. With two arrows per wind element usage, it does almost nothing now. But yeah capping is pretty much its only real role.

Pyro: lately (actually just in the past day xD) I've seen its use as a kind of midfield-recovery class (not a midfield AND recovery class, but a class that recovers while running around in midfield). Its frenzy ability is ruthless, and all a pyro needs to do is run around a little bit, engage in a short fight with someone to charge up the axe then run away, then find the flag carrier and unleash the power of flame. However, this is mainly a role in normal CTF games, as matches are usually limited to one pyro who would be much more useful inside of the flag room, preventing the need to recover in the first place.

 

Dwarf (Now): Powerful but highly immobile defensive class that people are whining about even though it hasn't changed since I've been around and is pretty balanced.

What dwarf should (NEEDS) to be: Slowly move up on those unsuspecting fools and slaughter them in their ignorance because dwarf still can be an offensive class.

 

You're a funny one

 

So like, the way elf gets most of its kills @Admiral_Trump

 

Boy, I've been gone for tooooo long....

 

Assassin: Recov, Defense, Distraction, and Defense killing.

also being targeted for being an annoying little ****, but that's just how I play

 

Roles I see:
Heavy: Mostly defense/randomly going around killing stuff, sometimes offense
Soldier: Basically always offense, though been used for defense recently sometimes; also randy killing
Archer: Defense, offense, randy killing, whatevs
Medic: Mostly support or offense, sometimes defense

Pyro: Defense
Ninja: Defense, Offense, Recovery
Chemist: Mostly Offense or randy killing, sometimes defense, sometimes support
Assassin: Recovery/Defense
Necro: Uuuuhhh defense I guess???
Mage: Randy killing most of the time, sometimes defense, or recovery
Engineer: Mostly Offense, sometimes support or defense
Dwarf: Defense
Elf: Offense

Roles I want:
Heavy: More defensive. Tough class that lasts a while but deal some good damage should be on defense.
Soldier: Still offense, though idc bout defense. I'd like this class to remain pretty versatile.
Archer: More defensive, idk how to rework this w/o making it super difficult or ineffective though. gl w that
Medic: Stay support or offense. Probably okay how it is, though maybe make it like you can only heal if the person has been out of combat for 5 seconds or so???

Pyro: Stay defense, being lit on fire and 3 shotted or so on defense isnt fun.
Ninja: Defense or recovery. It's basically what it was created for.
Chemist: Offense, maayyybbee little defense.
Assassin: Recovery/defense
Necro: Same as above????
Mage: Something kinda defense/recovery w/o being able to destroy so easily
Engineer: Non-existant (defense i guess)
Dwarf: Non-existant (defense i guess)
Elf: Defense/Recovery

 

Concerning dwarf:
Well, you leave for 4 months, and apparently the community hates the dwarf now. I don't quite understand, seeing as dwarf is the same since I started playing it 3 years ago (I may have missed minor changes, but everything seems the same). So I guess when one class everyone hates gets the nerf it deserves they move onto a... class that is limited and has severe counters and deem it... the new pyro. Now, I see where this is coming from, the ability to murder anything and knock back with fire, but dwarf is still a range/mobility limited class with some benefits are overlooked.

1: Concerning the sword: Everyone knows a dwarf's ability: crouch and gain XP, the more levels, the better sword you have and can destroy offensives, HOWEVER: It takes an insane amount of time to get a super-sword, so a dwarf has to be patient and alert. Assassins can ruin all 5 minutes you spent gaining levels and force you to crawl back to the flag again, remaining open for attacks, with a basic sword.

2: Dwarf's speed: This is a huge debuff to the dwarf preventing him from getting mobile in the frontline and is often restricted to sole defending the flag in the flag room, and this can admittedly get frustrating. But keep in mind that if you can get a good dash hit in on him and stay out of range, you will knock him back and he can't recover the distance lost. Yes, a cornered dwarf next to a flag can be a real problem (encourage open flags). Through personal experience, it is apparent that you can keep knocking an enemy out of range without them being able to hit you, so just keep your distance from the dwarf and try to sneak up and knock him away.

3: Assassin: 1 shot, it's all gone. Dwarves are hindered by blocking causing them to drain XP, and if a dwarf hasn't spotted an assassin, they won't be prepared and are crouching ready to swing. Many maps have dropdowns or walls that prevent sighting of an assassin, so take advantage of these.

4: Health: A dwarf is a fairly heavy class, consisting of a D chest and legs with Ch helmet and boots, but with only 3 steak, he can't take a flag room alone forever. He needs support from a medic or chemist or will just be whittled down to nothing.

And finally:
Mid/Offensive dwarf: The gameplay that few are patient enough to play.
1: Did you know: Dwarves can block headshots? At the cost of 1000 XP, you can turn a dwarf into literally a wall to assist against an archer heavy team.
2: Dwarf-Med offensive combo: No explanation needed. Just run.
3: Dwarf -Med-Chemist: Pray to whatever deity you believe in when you see this nightmare sight 3 blocks from you.
When paired with a medic, I have swept an enemy flag room and actually captured the flag (once. Though I highly respect dwarf, I do not recommend this as a capping class for obvious reasons). An offensive dwarf can ruin house if it gets into a defense. So if you people see a lonely dwarf crawling towards the other team, give him a hand and get him into their defenses and watch them burn.

Now, I could go onto how to play solo or supported offensive dwarf, but I'll save that for later.
Please, stop whining about how "OP" this class is and start seeing its weaknesses and exploiting them. Please, I have respect for the ignored potential of the dwarf class and find it stupid that people call it unbalanced because it hasn't really changed at all and is just a strong defensive class. (Plus, all the patience required makes it one of the slowest classes (figurative and literal) in the game, and that makes it different from most other class play styles.)

Please shut up,
-Draco

 

Nice. Be rude and polite at the same time! That'll show em

 

Granted, the patience some are willing to put into playing dwarf is respectable. The fact that it has as many weaknesses as it has strengths is respectable. Obviously, the only real problem with the class is when it happens to one-shot you with a combination of initial damage and fire damage, while otherwise you can hit it away from the flag and be on your merry way (a little more difficult with two dwarves, nearly impossible with three, but then I suppose that applies to any powerful class).

Of course, most people who hate dwarf mostly hate it for those times when it beats them. But the reason I dislike the class is because of its generally bad role in the game. The class was designed purely to sit at the flag and wait, and the play style is actually more all-or-nothing than assassin with the class's snowball effect--a little ironically, its game play is made that way because of assassin.

But anyway, a class made for the very purpose of sitting at the flag for as long as it can while being the sole primary weapon of the defense--with arguably more damaging power than the old pyro, since the old pyro had to first light people on fire while dwarf merely has to hit people with its sword--and the fact that it can all be ruined by one assassin while you're not paying attention, as well as the fact that only assassin can ruin it, just makes for a plain bad class in general. Again, I don't deny that dwarf has its weaknesses; you're not always prepared for assassins, and decreased mobility really sucks when you get batted away from the flag by people, costing some XP to stop crouching and inch your way back to the flag again. But the high power and the hindrances of mobility and time consumption do not cancel out as opposites--they just add together to make everything worse.

I'm sorry to intrude on your respect for the class, but this is just what dwarf is. No addition and/or removal of features can fix the fact that the very concept of the class is not a good idea, especially because pyro already fills its role in a much better way due to its higher mobility (a plus for pyros themselves), and much higher vulnerability with low armor and no sword to block assassins (a plus for those fighting against pyros), and it even has a good handful of steaks so it still stands a fighting chance against its counter classes. Dwarf is simply unnecessary to the game, and unfortunately for everyone who respects/plays the class, it only has three (good) options: 1. have a huge rework that changes its concept entirely, 2. become the next necro (after which it would probably get buffed back up but have a different concept anyway), or 3. be removed from the game.

 

Dwarf is a tricky class. It fills a niche very well, and is extremely powerful. If left alone, it is rather OP, however, this encourages strategizing and cooperative gameplay (which I admit is rare), It adds a roadblock to capturing a flag. You now, instead of rushing in, have to find a way to outsmart the dwarf and nab the flag. Heck, one idea is nab the flag with steak at hand and let him hit you for some nasty knock back. It's worked for me.

The difference between pyros and dwarves is an active vs passive play style. Pyros are weaker in armor, but have armor piercing strength and fire damage, as well as crowd control and good self-healing. Dwarves are much more focused and stationary, but can toss around opponents and give a good deal of control. Together they can make an unstoppable team. Why not try to combo two classes? Use each other's strengths and weaknesses to create impenetrable defense. Dwarf is pretty vulnerable, yet extremely powerful. Throw 'em back with a flame sword and have a pyro clean up shop, keep a soldier attention focused while an assassin comes from behind.

I encourage people to be creative and use dwarf in a way you wouldn't think. Think in 3 dimensions at the possibilities you can do. If you don't like just sitting on the flag and trying to tank it, hide in a doorway behind a wall and stop an escape, heck even bloody go on offense. Don't limit your view to a class by seeing the meta that everyone complains about. Use abilities in ways that's creative and not their intended purpose, like using assassin's redstone to negate fall damage. I've only been back for two days and yet utterly confused at why dwarf has received so much hate that it hasn't for 3 years. I may just be stubborn on my opinions, but I see this class with large potential.

-Draco