Honestly can this just stop [Rant]

Cannot kill an archer...okay buddy...okay...

The maps youve stated are old maps and are purposely archer op. If they werent archer op soldier would be unstoppable there. I will always defend archer lmao. Archer is a necessary class and is really hard to abuse. Nerfing/reworking/removing archer basically gives every other class a buff if it has the flag. Archer is 90% of the time required to take out an engie, or a horde defending the flag carrier. Its instakill is its strong point, I've killed multiple archers as ninja and randies have done the same as ninja/etc. Basically everyones calling the wahbulance on archer cause it makes it actually difficult to get to the flag and cap :O. Its like you guys want the game to be easy and boring and balanced(balanced games suck big time because no challenge).

Also, strafing gets you very far because you can easily distract the archer/or get close enough to kill it(especially with ninja.)

Ive been an archer user since 2011-2012 and only times i got huge ks/didnt die was when the time was 40 minutes. The last time i saw a ks more then 10 was brandino on blackout with 25ks.

Thats my defense of archer. Archer is the least of ctfs problem compared to say: assassin, ghost/prem capping, dwarf on freeday, engineer, chemist.

 

what you described is actually quite hard to do, usually youll only snipe noobs who stand around spawn to get kills(due to temp spawn immun) Those who abuse archer like that is the reason it gets a bad rap.

 

Before the rework of Engineer they had a blind spot right next to it. Pearling right onto the Engineer turret allowed you to make it into the blind spot unscathed allowing you to break the turret.

It was a great time.

 

Well since you're giving permission...
Note to mods: Thread owner gave permission, it's not off topic!

wat?

I'll tell you, I was just like you at one point. You can find messages on these forums (only for a little while after the Brawl move) where I'm ranting about how archer is supposedly balanced and fair beyond argument. But it's all a big lie.

As I see it, people who defend the archer class argue with two main points in mind: that it "takes skill," and that it has a necessary role in the game. The first point is either an illusion or a debate of opinion; skill can be applied, but that does not mean it takes a minimum amount of skill to use at a basic level; and the opinion debate is exactly what that basic minimum is. The second point is entirely true, though not a foundation upon which to argue that archer is both balanced and fair.

Archer's role in the game is very important--that is, if the class is used objectively (@Miskey). Recovery ninjas can only do so much once a flag carrier is out of the flag room, and a game where the flag carrier does not get free often enough is just broken. Archer then comes into play as the last line of defense--it is also the first line of defense in cutting down the number of potential flag intruders, though only in an ideal game (randomkillers everywhere help with that job, sometimes a little too much).

Reworking/nerfing archer (any rework would essentially be a nerf) would not change its role in all cases, however. Archer performs in its role exceptionally well--this is why people can get high kill streaks with it (I don't even know what you mean by archers not getting many kill streaks)--and in fact it performs too well in any case but that of an official competitive match (and even then it is often too powerful). @Admiral_Trump once posted a rework which to this day I have not seen beaten by a better one (albeit I haven't been watching out for reworks as much as some, and I've been connected with the community for much a much shorter time than many, and if you haven't noticed I like using parenthesis a lot). In short, Admiral's rework is not instant kill, giving victims a chance to steak to survive, but it can still potentially kill a full-health player with one shot.

Take a look at the facts yourself, then be honest with yourself. That's what I did at one point, and I found that archer is indeed too powerful. Next time you get a 15+ kill streak or easily headshot four flag carriers in a row (which are very realistic scenarios), just think about that.

 

1st of all:
By cannot kill an archer i mean that of the 13 classes if you are not ninja or archer and your over 30-40 blocks away you have no gap closures or any safe way of getting to melee range to attempt to kill them and once you are in melee range you will get punch 2ed back out of range.
2nd
No map should be or has been made to be "purposely op" for any class that is just bad game play standards. having one thing op so another thing isn't?
3rd
Those were just a few examples looking at my server list of all 5 servers it contains river crossing, desert strike, giant chests, castles wars and pagodas symmetrical, the only map out of those 4 that is even arguably balanced for archer would be pagodas.

Archer being necessary is just another point towards it being op in the fact the a good archer can solo carry a team is just absurd and it does happen. 90% of your time doesn't need to spent on engi's or whatever its spent on what you decide to do, on a good archer map a good archer can stop 3 or even more people from ever even getting to the flagroom.

Balanced games make it so skill is the winning factor of your games and not based off which class are you playing

Do you actually believe that archers don't get the highest ks? None of the other classes can get killstreaks as easily as archer and you must not be on much if you don't see anything over 10.

 

30-40 blocks away requires luck/skill to hit. I play daily and a lot. Also, theres a thing called strafe...and its quite easy to fake an archer even close range.

so, you dont think beaver creek and walrus creek werent made with the thought in mind "thisll be archer/soldier op"
Btw, theres 5, learn to count. Giant chests is pretty balanced for archer also.

Archer carrying the team? one slick ninja easily gets away from them, also, even with 5 archers on pavo realitys map couldnt deal with the amount of people going in. Btw, so, a heavy that single carries a teams def is op and absurd? no, its called damn defense.

Yes, and shouldnt it take skill to take down a hard class to kill?(dont bring up dwarf, thats different) Exactly, if the parts of the classes that require skill to kill are removed , then its just like, tap tap with sword, boom, easy capping and controlling of flag.

ive seen assassins get more then 40 ks, and i rarely die as heavy and i got an 18 ks as heavy as defense against chemists.


The complaints against archer is basically "wah wah, archers headshot is op because i keep dying to it without thinking of a way to get rid of archer". Thats the basis of the arguments, and its like a child having a tantrum. Archer is not doing anything gamebreaking, unlike ninja, so archer wont be getting nerfed anytime soon.

Good day sir

As i am too lazy to talk about the entire paragraph, ill talk about the important stuff. If it has nerf like pure element, archer will become useless and worse then elf, elf at least has a get away and earth. Archer getting nerfed and reworked will have it be necro'd theres no rework/nerf that wouldnt have it necro'd. The second chance thing, thats a little too dumb dont you think? what about campers at spawn with ENGINEERS AND MEDICS. Think about that please, archer will become useless in that scenario and that only leaves a lucky assassin clutching it.

Everyone listen here. IF ARCHER IS NERFED/REWORKED IN ANY WAY(that removes instakill), ONCE CAPPERS GET OUT OF FLAG ROOM, THEY ONLY HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ASSASSINS/NINJAS. THEY WILL BE UNKILLABLE IF BY A ENGINEER.

Anyways, thats why archer cannot be nerfed, or basically ctf is screwed.

 

I'll just address each paragraph at a time

-See, you did mention luck there, so I'll talk about that. While I don't deny that being extremely accurate is pretty hard, you can land a shot by pure chance. With most other classes, being bad means you get destroyed, but with archer, you have unlimited shots. One lucky shot results in an insta-kill, which is just unfair, because it took no skill. That whole mechanic is broken. While strafing an archer is a method to avoid it, you can't do it forever, and you don't even see an archer. There is nothing a melee class can do to directly fight an archer that's 30 blocks away, especially if you have the flag. You're already dodging recov, you can't dodge archer arrows as well.

-l0l, both the maps you're referring to are pretty old (walrus creek just remade beavers, so the concepts the same). Archer really wasn't considered that OP, and good ones were hard to find. While archer is the exact same, that map was balanced around the meta and thoughts of that day, which are different from today. In addition, who da faq cares what the intention of the mapmakers were. In the end, it is archer and soldier OP.

-I really don't think you understood the point here. While it is true other classes can carry teams, those methods all take more skill to use (with the exception of say, dwarf and engineer). The thing is, archer can kill anything from over 30 blocks, making it insanely good for just mowing people down. Can't kill them in melee? Just spam arrows at them.

-You are completely right, it should take skill, but not to take down a hard class, to take down a good player. The players skill should matter more then the class played. In addition, liek you said earlier, and archer can kill a player based on just luck. Luck doesn't take skill, so that means archer can kill people with no skill. In this paragraph you say that's bad, so archer is bad then, right?

-l0l wat. What assassin have you seen get a 40 ks. But putting that aside, I've seen archers get a 130 ks, so naming kill streak numbers doesn't help yur case at all, seeing as archer is the class with the largest (besides old necro, but f0k old necro).

-idk wat you consider gamebreaking, but I would consider a class that can dominate anything outside a 30 block range to be gamebreaking. A class that can kill by pure luck, that's gamebreaking. I mean, I wouldn't put archer in the direct category of gamebreaking, that's more like dwarf (stall games by itself, a pain in the but). Archer is just generally OP and broken, because it's the only long range class in a melee game (mage and Elf are more midranged really).

-Yes, because you can see into the future and have read every archer rework post. You don't know that an archer rework will be bad. You assume an archer rework will completely destroy the class, while in fact a good rework will make archer require more skill in some way, and then take out that luck factor. And while camping with engies and medics is OP, naming another OP scenario does not make archer more balanced. In fact, since archer can take out the completely OP scenario, that makes archer OP.

-Once again, just because engie is broken and archer is needed to kill it doesn't make archer any less broken.

 

Lol, im not even going to argue the rest of this topic. Archer isnt getting nerfed anytime soon, and probably never will, we can complain as much as we like about the class, its not going to happena nytime soon, or never will, we have more op crap to deal with.

Btw people, i dont know if you ever thought to remember this, archer takes 3 seconds to fully charge refire an arrow, 3 seconds is all it needs for someone to heal/get away since most maps have great cover. Archer taking 3 seconds to refire is substantial enough time for the enemy to get away, and for the archer to get killed.

I dont need to be able to see into the future to know that these people are hypocrites, if archers nerfed, all we will hear about from then on is, soldiers too hard to kill, chemist too hard to kill, engineer too hard to kill. This whole topic is bull from the start.

We wanted a pyro nerf, once we got it, we complained our butts off, same with any other class that got nerfed except engineer.

 

It has been confirmed that Instakills will be removed once a balanced alternative has been discovered, chances of this not happening are slim as this was a choice made by the server owner. No amount of bias can change that fact, at the least.

 

Server owner obviously hasnt played much on ctf. at least as archer -.-

 

I get it, you have a severe bias. I don't wish to continue talking to a brick wall but I might as well defend the Server Owners decision with my own rationalizing

 

very nice copying it and putting your own sentence in it -.-. Btw. I cant tell you how many times i die to randies out of nowhere. Its hard being an archer because you are constantly targeted by everybody.

Archers easy to miss, and many factors also contribute to archers missing. You seem to say all the bad stuff about it, but nothing else.

 

Yes, missing is very important when they have 128 attempts and can easily respawn at a moments notice.

 

l0l wat. I'm pretty sure it takes around 1.5 seconds to fully charge a bow, which is nowhere close to enough for someone to get away. And besides, you can't really run from an archer, they have a long ranged attack. People heal in way less than 3 seconds, so I dun see how that makes a difference either.

Wait, how does that make them a hypocrite? They aren't contradicting their beliefs on archer, they're just seeing the effect on the game.

I can't tell you how many times I die to archers out of nowhere. It's hard being any class these days because you're constantly dying out of nowhere from archer.

Archer isn't that hard to hit as well. Many factors contribute to archers hitting things. You can say all the good stuff about it, but nothing else.

Parody aside, him not saying anything good about archer doesn't mean much since he's arguing against archer.

 

As someone who, with some fantastic feedback from one of the best Archers around (@LordChaos_92) created the Archer rework that pookey was referencing, I can tell you that your comments are very misplaced. How so? Because you are seeing CTF as it is, not what it could be. You talking about reworking Archer in the parameters of the current game. I and other people who have proposed or are open to an Archer rework (such as @pookeythekid) are talking about reworking Archer within the scope of a different CTF, where the meta is not some quivering house of cards.

Therefore, I considered the whole point about Engineers and Medics (and Mages) in the Archer rework and here's what I think:

If we are going to get rid of instant kills, as most Archer reworks (like mine) do, then we need to get rid of instant heals. That rework was designed entirely around the assumption that Engineer, Medic, Mage, basically any class that had rapid (instant) heals would not have those anymore. In short, it was proposed as part of a series of reworks in a complete rework of the game (CTF v2.0) with the aim of removing instant kills, a mechanic which I believe have been a complete disaster for CTF.

 

Exactly, I'm prety sure they arent going to remove those heals anytime soon either xd. I see whatcha mean with how archer can be abused, but honestly, thats like 20% of archers.

We should be happy that medic got the nerfs in the first place.

 

Disclaimers: @TheSkullOfNight, I recommend you read every point I'm making here. I can get pretty excessively wordy, yes, but my words all mean something.
@Admiral_Memeson I actually didn't know you intended to have your archer rework within a new CTF, but I still think the whole rework fits in current CTF.

Firstly, Admiral's reworks is pretty much the best possible compromise between instant kills and non-instant kills. The time period between being struck with an arrow and the next (lethal) wave of damage is not enough time for a medic who isn't constantly watching you to heal you, and you'll have to be standing right next to an engineer cake to heal yourself from that; the idea is to kill you as punishment for not paying attention, or otherwise lower you to such a health that you have to waste your steaks, after which the next shot will probably kill you. (@Admiral_Trump what was it, 1.5 seconds between arrow strike and final damage? Sumthin' like that?)

If I had a dollar for every time people probably said "pyro/soldier/chemist will never get reworked," (idk I hadn't paid attention to the community before the Brawl move) I could probably buy myself... eh, probably a semi-high-end graphics card? But skrew the money, I have a pretty decent graphics card if I do say so myself.

Point is, it happened to pyro, soldier, and chemist, and if Brawl would be bold enough to give us the elf nerf we'd all been waiting for, I'm sure they'd give us the archer rework that's been an issue for far longer than elf has existed. (I dun wanna turn this into an elf rant, just using examples here.)

Well, if you want to get even more general, CTF was a crapshoot from the start, the Internet was a crapshoot, everything we know and love, all just crap because people are bound to judge it. This is Earth, where humans exist. People are going to have severely differing views, and no matter what you do, you cannot please everyone or often even the majority. I, for one, have no complaints about the nerfs, though; I find pyro a heck of a lot more fun to play, I feel no different with the new soldier, and chemist had way too much mana to begin with anyway.

Not gonna lie, more like 20% of archers (those we call "regulars") actually try to do their job, 70% of archers abuse the class (9 year olds who think CTF = TDM With Flags That Mean Nothing), and 10% are noobs who have no clue what they're doing.

This instance of "easy" heavily depends on skill. If you practice enough, you can one-shot 50% or more of your targets, 2-shot most of the other 50%, and then a few percent squeezed into the end represents those times when you feel like you're a total failure at everything as you fail to hit a single target with sixteen shots. Believe me, I have my moments...

Of course, you must feel that archer is being attacked without full consideration of the pros and cons, etc. I hear you. As a frequent weekend- and all-during-vacation CTFer who mainly plays archer and used to find nothing wrong with the class, I understand what you're trying to say.

It sometimes takes frequently playing other classes to help you realize just how powerful archer is. I went straight from archer to elf; believe me, there was a huge contrast between killstreaks for days and dying to almost every person I encountered. I'm not saying that playing other classes will allow you to get headshotted more often and then you'll automagically realize that archer is OP as if you're Darth Vader realizing that the Sith is the bad guy.* What I am saying is that getting a really good feel for other classes while remaining skilled with archer gives you a sense of just why archer should be reworked. With my switching between two classes on complete opposite ends of the power spectrum, I realize that I have a rather extreme example, but bear with me here: training with the 3-shot Pure Element, going through all of the rage and adjustment pains, really woke me up to just how easy I find it to aim, shoot at, and kill most targets with a single arrow.

*I know from experience just as well as you do that archers--especially the successful ones (@LordChaos_92 feel free to elaborate)--get targeted and headshotted a bunch, so I'm not saying that archer is not somewhat vulnerable either. That said, it is still very strong.

Now, I also realize that archer being the apex of the CTF Food Pyramid is an important thing. (@mh__ sorry bud, gotta disagree with you on that one.) The nature of the game has it that almost all attacks require being within melee range, as well as the fact that people can move around and outrun each other. A long-ranged attack is very necessary, an effective one at that--as such, there must be that one annoyingly powerful class to get the job done, but no more than one class should be able to do this.

This is not to say that archer must have ultimate power, though. One step below that would do it some good--this, I believe, would be something like Admiral's rework. Again, it's not a nerf down to Pure Element level (I also have argued the same point before, so I get what you mean by that), but rather a less ruthless form of instant kill which will most likely kill people in two shots with little question, 3 shots at the very most (though I'm not sure even medic has enough steaks to make it through the second shot). (@Admiral_Memeson not sure if you put this in the rework cuz it's been awhile since I've read it) There should also be a fair range increase on headshots. Like, seriously, you must know what I'm talking about when you question how some headshots were even headshot range.

So, apologies for making you read a bunch of this stuff, but, as long as you actually read all of it and understood each point I tried to make, you should get the idea.

 

archer is op can you all stfu now