Which?

you are putting words in my mouth and you are still being stubborn and arrogant claiming your argument is the best, you keep bashing archer in the same ways because theres nothing else to say. Archer has an op instakill that can be dodged, oh no.

I know fully well archer isnt balanced. I was an archer main till I came back from my 2 year break.

Archer will be the last class getting nerfed/reworked if the server even survives long enough to do so, Archers nerf/rework would consist of removing the instakill but somehow make it so it can still help with flag carriers and engineer campers without being an elf with more armor? Nerfing engineer would do nothing because no nerf without removing the class as a whole(which will never happen) will stop engineer campers.

Sorry people who have good arguments against archer and complain about archer, it quite sadly *sarcasm* will be the last class getting nerfed because its rework would take the longest to think of and the hardest due to elf being a class, it would just become an armor buffed elf.

Archer is one of the main reasons offense doesnt take control of flags, or engineers dont block an entire route with teles turrets and cake, and matches last forever because people camp with engineer.

 

That's partially down to map design as well as Archer's range. The perceived better maps don't usually have that feature, but I mean one of the perks of the class is that ranged advantage. Also depends on the archer, the bad ones are the ones that tend to make it difficult by camping. Better archers usually stand right out in the open knowing they can fine well avoid the shots of other archers. Unfortunately due to the aesthetic over gameplay aspect of the map choices currently, I'm not sure this'll be fixed anytime soon (which by the way I'm completely against, I don't care about how pretty it is if the gameplay makes it horrible)

I don't like camping archers either, and I'll be glad to shoot them down if I get the chance. In the meantime, changing archer so it's weaker short range would be nice, as well as making the headshot potent rather than instakilling, that way at least giving classes a chance.

 

i've actually made an argument. do you know what an argument is?

you seem pretty convinced that you actually have one, which you don't. you make zero effort to acknowledge or counter my points. you're just rambling on with no consideration of what i'm saying at all.

yes, an instakill that you have to try to dodge while the archer can spam arrows at you with no consequence for missing. sound fair?

10 second cake cooldown per player, less damage from turret, no knockback from turret. literally solved.

or implement the perfectly fine reworks that community members have thought of, with a few tweaks if necessary? nah, that's crazy talk.

i don't see this happening. if you want to reclaim your flagroom, you use assassin or pyro. there is no practicality in clearing with archer because the second you kill one person, everyone with common sense will move out of the way.

irrelevant. engineer's problem.

 

I'm done with making an irrelevant discussion against someone who is almost as stubborn, arrogant and ignorant as myself.

You obviously dont play in game that much imuffles, offense that has taken control of a flagroom literally can just hold block, and pyros are useless against assassins, ninjas or medics in said room.

 

TBH archer is still a necessary evil. Yes, I think it's OP. Yes, I think it will need a change. Hell, maybe just tweak it right now (Take out the Punch II, etc). But in CTF's current state, I think it should stay the same.

You remember how they "nerfed" soldier? Yea, it wasn't really nerfed. It still avoids all grounded classes and is extremely difficult to recover on. The only classes that can keep up with soldier, is sometimes ninja (which usually it takes multiple ninjas to recover), and of course, soldier. Archer is possibly the most effective class against soldier right now once they get out of the flag room. Oh, have I mentioned medic teaming, also? Archer can also take care of that. Archer is a game changer. It can prevent all these standoffs and whatever else that no one can recover off of, sometimes.

That being said, archer is the most kill***** friendly class in the game. Look at the top ten leaders on the kills leaderboards. Half of them are archer mains, including me. Slightly less than half of my kills are from archer. About every single game of whatever blackout/whiteout map recently, I've gotten at least 90 kills. Hell, I even recorded one.

Do I think archer needs a change? Yes. Do I think it should be the first one, or be fairly soon? Hell to the no. The game of CTF is capture the flag. Archer can just kill things. It can't capture, it can't defend inside the flag room. There are more important things to worry about than something that can get a lot of kills, right now.

And on that note, I say dwarf or engi cx

 

me and brandino agree on something, thats a first.

 

Yes because the only way to kill archers is by instakills ofc
Buff ninjas sword dmg so its sharp V
give medic speed I
chemist is fine against archer
the list goes on

I don't know about you, but to me buffing sounds like it would make the game much more interesting, much more fun to try "op" classes and abilities. Definitely more fun than trying to be still as useful after a nerf that makes the class utterly terrible (necro). Buffing doesn't mean reaching instakill level, certain classes were made for instakills, not all, completely ruining everything by nerfing everything isn't a solution, it just makes the game less enjoyable and more difficult to play, less chance of new players joining and getting better at it. In fact, you could say a lot of people want certain classes nerfed so they can distinguish themselves from a bad player/randy.

Tell me, if you remember back in 2012/2013 when practically all classes were op, which was the strongest? None, all were good to play and required a different "skill" curve to play. Mage was strong, assassin was strong,ninja was strong, necro was strong etc. If you buffed classes, they don't need to be buffed till they get infinite speed, sword dmg etc. They just should be rebuffed back to a certain stage in their development when they were strong. Ninja was really op and could kill even heavies if you were good enough, but so was chemist, pyro, necro and so on.

Also, didn't you find those games slightly more fun than they are now? Sure there are a lot less players now per game but the fact that every class was good back in the day, you could play literally anything and still have a ton of fun. Ninja bothering you? No Problem, go chemist and kill him, dwarf bothering you, just have two redstone in case they decide to unblock, etc.

It's not my logic that's the problem, people are too stubborn to realise that buffing could work out and solve a few if not many problems, and definitely make the game more enjoyable for many people and increase the overall playerbase of the game

 

I was the first one to come up with this idea, instead of nerfing every class into the ground and making them less fun, how about they all get severely buffed that way its chaos like the old time but not as broken, the game is severely boring without chat.

 

@TheMaelstromsEye Look, I agree as much as the next archer-biased guy that archer plays a crucial, essential role in the game as an all-round weapon when everything else fails. I also hate camping engineers as much as the next guy. But archer is still a problem that, although it shouldn't be fixed first, should not be fixed last either.

It's not just people who get headshot while not playing archer that complain about archer's power. You have actual archer mains like myself, Chaos, and Brandino complaining about archer's ridiculous power especially when used in their own hands (lol I'm mainly talking about Chaos and Brand for that part). Let me say that again to be clear: archer mains complaining about their own archer power.

I don't believe you realize how greatly lethal an archer can still be with a tweak/rework. @Admiral_Munson's had it figured out for a while: long-ranged shots deal massive but nonlethal damage upon impact, then damage over time takes place and the victim perishes if they fail to self-heal. If you limit that DoT to a second or less, catching players off guard (which is incredibly easy to do as archer, not sure you're aware of that) can punish them pretty badly. And here's a silver lining for you (as if the above doesn't look good enough): a second or less isn't even enough time for an engineer to run back to his cake!

(@iMuffles ^ that seems somewhat relevant to you too c: )

@Doubtfully restoring the Glory Days of powerful classes probably isn't such a bad idea in theory, to be honest. It may be game breaking (as it apparently seemed to be back then, which is why it's gone now), but it sounds fun at the least. Still, getting back to that stage would require as much of a CTF overhaul as it would to progress forward into something like Munson's CTF 2.0 (if you've even glanced at the full length of that post, my point has been made).

(edit: lol I still have the only assassin vote. Also @WhiskeRRs there's a pretty direct correlation between archer's votes and the discussion in this thread )

 

@pookeythekid is right. Let me put it as blantantly as I can:

Does anyone think this is fair for someone to get? @BrandinoB got another 100 in the same game! How is this sensible?

 

Just because you were ignorant of the meta game back then doesn't mean everyone else was. I remember those days and ninja was without a doubt the strongest thing in the game. It fit every role and a lot of people were aware of that. The best teams in those days were heavily comprised of ninja mains. the ninja mains were also considered some of the best and most valuable players.

Yeah, it was because the classes were balanced. not that the majority of the community was too unskilled to make use of all the broken mechanics.

Your Logic is exactly the issue. You've got your facts all mixed up and are drawing simple conclusions with these messed up facts in mind. I don't disagree that a lot of classes need to be made more fun. but power does not = fun.

 

If I am ignorant of the meta game back then, then how do I recall it?

Keep in mind that chemist could also fit every role as well back in day, being as fast as a ninja and much more tankier shouldve made it just as good, yet people were garbage at pot pvp, which is why its popularity wasn't that high

The classes were not balanced. The only thing that was the reason every class was good was because all of them were op. The moment the developers started nerfing a class showed the unbalance and instability of ctf. If it was balanced, why did suddenly the whole game collapse due to one or two nerfs to one class or two? Doubt that defines balanced.

The community hasn't changed much. Of course in terms of skill level, the community has improved, but people still managed to make use of broken mechanics, its just nowadays they're more visible than before.

Elaborate how my facts are mixed up. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure that every class was very strong, that there were many more players per game and that every class could take care of another easily.

The issue isn't my logic at all, unless you're referring to balancing out as nerfing everything. If it sounds that simple in conclusion it's probably because it is that simple. I am just stating that classes would be better off if they sometimes get buffed too instead of just going on an endless nerf road till the gamemode ends up as pvp with diamond armor and knocback II sticks. I encourage you to check out literally any other game that has regular updates except for minecraft. League, Dota, whatever. Every update in those games doesn't nerf everything, every update has buffs and nerfs, to keep the game interesting and changing meta. Quite contrary to this type of solution to balancing out a game, the ctf community revolves around the mindset that nerfing everything op= balanced.

Power does not = fun eh. I'm pretty sure its more fun playing something like good old chemist with strength and speed II and annihilating everybody rather than going something like necro currently.

 

(@Creux)
I don't recall a lot of old CTF, but I think you're both right. Classes were OP, but until some nerfs happened, there were no major class weaknesses to set off a chain reaction of nerfs. (At least, that's what makes sense to me; I didn't exactly witness whatever happened.)

 

Hey

Guys

Howabout we all recognize that CTF is old af and kind of garbage and get on with our lives? Y'all are throwing all this salt at eachother over sh*t that hasn't had a drastic change in who knows how long, and likely won't change in time to keep ctf interesting.

So howsabout we all let bygones be bygones and, if we're so dead-set on changing things around here, focus on changing multiple classes at a time to encourage balance between all the classes instead of arguing over which class needs to break the others first?

------

That being said, if y'all are arguing for the sake of argument, as we do, then my two cents are that Archer should be changed to deal Munson's rework AFTER soldier's mobility and engi's tankiness is dealt with. Also, add spectral arrows to mark targets like flag carriers.

 

uh, theres a thing called a compass.

I miss the old days, it was chaos, it was fun, and it is true, once the nerfs started to happen it become clearly visible the problems other classes had.

Example: When assassin had no counter to its assassinate, we didnt think of dwarf as gamebreaking, but due to assassin able to be blocked, we realize dwarf is one of the most broken classes in the game.

The game was so intense and fun we didnt complain about archers instakill that much due to classes easily being able to take it down like old ninja and old assassin. 414 rest in pieces.

The only thing I think everyone can agree they hated was old engineer and old necro. the spawn blocking was real, and anyone remember waterfall with engineers?

 

You don't? Do you know what meta game refers too?

Nope. Chemist was bad for team play back then. It's damage pots also affected teammates (not sure if it also affected the chemist that threw them as well) and the strength and speed pots although powerful only lasted 45 seconds. it wasn't a matter of pot pvp. Ninja had a much stronger sword, more mobility with enderpearls which allowed you to cap flags in sometimes less than 3 seconds since there wasn't a flag timer, and better pvp potential with 414.

I was being sarcastic, but when did that happen? what class was nerfed that caused this collapse you're talking about?

No. Engineer was the pinnacle of wtf. It could block of spawns, lock off entrances to flag rooms, and completely shut down anything that got too close. even other engineers struggled to get rid of another engineer single-handedly. Medic teams unlike today were actually legitimately unkillable one hit healed completely and restored items. I've already mentioned how broken ninja was. All of this put archer to the back of our minds in terms of problems, but these were problems none the less. the reason I believe we had so many players back then was because we had very little competition in terms of mini games. Now that mineplex and hypixel have taken over. CTF would have to meet those standards. and let me tell you. Mineplex's Dominate is not only well balanced and coded. It's also customizable and fun. Something like that has to be well thought out and planned it doesn't just happen by throwing buffs and nerfs randomly at a wall and seeing what sticks.

It is not that simple. If you think it is that simple you're just ignorant to the thought that does go into these systems, and I can't sit here and explain all of it. I lack the patience and the time to explain it formally maybe if you want to add me on skype we could discuss it.

Games like League and Dota have developers making calculated choices. CTF developers don't make calculated choices. They make choices based on community feedback, and the community is clueless. People like you who are saying it is much simpler than it actually is somehow have just as much an effect on the gamemode as I do. Even though I am more aware of these matters than you are, and that's part of the problem. If you actually want ctf to be better, then do me and everyone else a favor and stop posting when you only have a faint idea of what you're talking about.

 

Since you're so full of yourself, and I don't have the faintest idea of what I'm talking about (i.e you are superior to me) Do me and everyone else a favour and make a whole goddamn thread to fix ctf already (^: . If not, don't even post anymore rofl

 

When you think you are the most arrogant person in ctf and the forums but you are on the forums long enough to notice imuffles and creux

 

whoop, there it is

whoop, there it is

i am very sorry to have to break this to you TheMaelstromsEye/DimenzionSL/THE EAGLE EYED MAGE but u r an ABSOLUTE RANDY.

 

im boomdrone so ive probably been here longer then you randy.