Why Chemist is Done

I agree with all of this.

 

You are good with satire, pal. Keep it up!

 

Errr ... Have you seen the new Chemist and its complete uselessness? ._.

 

Obviously

 

It's useful. You just don't know how to play it. You have pots for support. You can choose to use them only on yourself or use them on your teammates. It's even better if you have a Medic so you can buff everybody.
I know Chemist isn't the best PVP class now, but at least it can defend itself from others pretty easily. Any class can be support in its own way. You just have to try.

 

Tbh chemist is more of troll kit now. Whenever I play it I just a couple of enemy players to chase me around the map, throwing pots behind me as I run. It would be great if chemist became a useful kit again.

 

Where's #3?

Anyway, I don't see why Chemist is "done." It still has a ton of health and still can support, just not as much anymore, I suppose.

The "weaknesses" are what make it fun for me. It forces a different PVP strategy that no other class has. This is actually one of the very few mechanics that I sorta like in this game, and the nerf only adds to this.

Now, I have no idea if Chemist was originally designed to be a support class, or a combat class. But I can tell you that it can still do both those jobs very efficiently.

All in all, I think the nerf is pretty lazy. I don't support it for any long-term use. But I don't think it ruined the class either.

 

What do they teach kids these days?

 

Yay! I annoyed someone!

 

I thoroughly disagree with this part. Support classes aren't overpowered in CTF because the idea of support in practice is flawed. They're overpowered because they're simply overpowered.

Not only can Medic heal people to full health and regen their items, it can also fight, cap, and slow down opponents, while being fairly Tanky, having 6 Steaks, and Pyro Immunity.

Not only is Engineer able to teleport teammates and heal them, but it has a super spammable turret that is super difficult to destroy without being an Engineer or Necro.

The problem about "Support" classes in CTF is that they're made to be too strong by themselves, on top of their support abilities.

Supports should be a pivotal part of any team game. Look at every successful team-based game, and I can guarantee there's likely some form of "support".

DoTA and LoL have a character role that is literally called "Support". And they're probably considered the epitome of team-based games. TF2, a game that CTF clearly takes a lot of inspiration from, has 3 classes that are primarily support (Medic, Engineer, and Pyro. Arguably Scout and Spy too). TF2 is probably one of the most successful team-based games in the world, with more than a hundred thousand players (and growing!) even after 9 years. Even Counter-Strike, a team game where everyone is equal, has players who do " support roles", throwing Grenades and playing off of Entry Fraggers.

CTF can potentially use Support classes, but the problem is just implementation; good ideas, bad balancing. If Medic was easier to kill, and Engineer easier to approach, they would still be fun classes to play. The only difference is that they would be more punishing for making mistakes, and maybe they won't get the highest KDR.

But who cares about KDR (okay i admit i do)? Some people just wanna play the game for fun and don't want to worry about their stats or whatever. The feeling of being this important centre piece for your team is rewarding enough as it is. The class doesn't have to be some huge monster that demolishes everything in it's path.

And yes, a team with a Support class SHOULD be more effective than a team without a Support class. It's not a balance issue that a role is important. In fact, all roles are important! You don't call capping classes overpowered just because they win games, in the same way you shouldn't call the support role overpowered.

The entire point of a team game is that your team has to be able to accomplish all the roles better than your enemy. If your enemy doesn't have people playing support roles, they should be steamrolled by a team with support classes. A team that's missing any sort of role will be steamrolled.

Personally, I like the new Chemist. It's not getting me super high KDR like Archer or Elf does, but it's satisfying getting that /ty from people you buff or heal. Support is a valuable and fulfilling role, and the only change it needs in CTF is to make the support classes easier to kill. And the Chemist change did that wonderfully. Chemists are still good for improving their team's capabilities. But now they're easier to kill. They're no longer the 1-man capping and killing class, which they were never supposed to be in the first place.

 

Who dafuq plays support seriously anyways??

(I'll take this entire thread as yet another point proving CTF is bad and should be put down and redone from the ground-up)

 

Versatility and balanced power or concentrated power. Pick one. The Old Chemist was much too versatile and much too powerful at the same time. Large health pool, high damage output, high speed, high capping ability, buffing capabilities, sharing healing, and debuffing enemies were all the things Chemist was capable of doing and was quite good at. Now, Chemist is still very versatile, but has no one or another particular strength that it can base its play style around at any given moment. Chemist is now required to use its versatility at every moment to stay relevant as a class. Perhaps, if you do not like Chemist being versatile and having balanced power as opposed to having concentrated power, you could suggest a way to reduce Chemist's versatility and keep it focused on concentrated power? I am sure that it would help balance the game if it turns out to be a good suggestion.

In the end, for nearly all game balance, it boils down to one simple decision: Versatility and balanced power or concentrated power.

 

The problem with chemist is that there are better classes to use for most situations. For example, medic is better than chemist than healing, and in combat, Engineer's tp is better than giving people speed, and heavy and dwarf are better at defending. Chemist can do all of the jobs above, but it is weak and is best to be left to noobs who want to help the team.

 

The chemist nerf was a band-aid fix. I honestly can't see the class staying this way permanently (though I'll probably be unpleasantly surprised).

IMO, the entire class should be reworked entirely to set it apart from being premium heavy - because that's what it was before, the premium PVP class. Now that it's even weaker than heavy but still plays a lot like heavy, it's pretty useless.

 

These post keep getting deeper and deeper. XD

 

The issue seems to be that you think Support classes aren't possible to balance in practice. When you said that classes wouldn't be possible to balance to be worth it, I thought you were talking about subjective worth because strictly speaking, almost any class can be balanced objectively unless the concept is broken by itself. I can get how some classes may be impossible to balance to make it *fun* for everyone, but to make it so contribute similar amounts (perfect balance is nearly impossible,) is definitely doable.

And the subjective worth comment was only a bit of my post. I did indeed touch on support class impact on games. I stated in it that (paraphrasing) "Support Classes don't have to have good personal abilities and stats. They're supposed to be supports." I don't quite remember if I stated this in my post, but Support classes are meant to be key targets. Supports are meant to have a large impact on the game, but be individually weak. This encourages players to target Supports, as they are easy to kill and have high reward, and also encourages players to protect their own supports from people trying to kill them. Yes, you need to make a class worth playing in terms of impact, but that doesn't mean that making the class easy to kill won't make it "worth playing". It's simply a case of risk:reward. Yes, this class is extremely squishy but it has a kick ass support ability.

I know you don't want me to bring other games into this discussion, but it's really helpful for making analogies and getting inspiration. TF2's Medic class is extremely squishy and has a very weak weapon. But their Medigun heals teammates (duh) and can make them invincible for a short amount of time after charging up for about a minute. The class is super easy to kill, but if it survives for long enough can potentially win games. This adds a meta of protecting the Medic so he can turn people invincible. Is Medic overpowered in the sense that it can be the sole factor in winning a game? Technically, yes. But the game still plays fine, because much of the meta focuses around killing the Medic. The Medic has huge reward but is very easy to kill, yet it is still worth playing while being balanced.

Translating this logic to CTF, we make it so yes, Support classes are overpowered in a literal sense, because they can make their team WAY more powerful than the enemy, but in the grand scheme of things they are balanced.

And how is "which team is stronger" any different from "how good a class is"? I was stating that in the case of an overpowered class they will cause one team to be stronger than they other, because they have a strong class. Which team is stronger is affected by how good the classes that the teams are made up of are. A team of just Necros is going to lose against a team with just Medics, because Necros are really bad and Medics are really good.

Ignoring all that, let me restate: Support classes are definitely possible to be balanced in terms of gameplay and also be fun to play as and against. Support classes should have a larger impact on games than other classes, but should be individually weak so enemies can take them out. This adds depth to the game.

As I've said, and so have others like @Admiral_Munson, perfect balance is not required. Some classes can have a little more impact, as long as they're made into a target. Here's a CTF example: Pyro is really good at defense, but has weak armor. It's very strong, but also a target. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, and it's an example from within CTF itself!

The new Chemist is neato. While it does need a few buffs to make it better at supporting teammates, the concept itself has the potential to be great for support. It was never meant to solo cap flags, and with the nerf it can't.

Also, lower the Archer damage multiplier. Back then it was a decent counter but now Archers just completely destroy Chemists, which don't need as big of a counter anymore.

 

I completely agree with your statement pertaining to support classes. They should be weak alone, but strong with teammates. Currently medic is one of the best capping classes, as well as a good defense class by itself. Couple this with being the only class that can restore players items, making it strong as a support class. I think the class is too good alone to be a support class.