Why Elf shouldn't get buffed.. Why CTF is so hard to balance..

But I don't disagree I actually really agree strongly. The problem is people will complain if this happens and this is why I think CTF doesn't get updates. (For example, the recent update)

 

your profile pic doesn't match your posts

 

I completely agree with you on some areas bill. I am new to the forums and to the ctf game, but i have done some research on the forums. I see chemist as more of a support class with all its pots, I dont think it was ever meant to be that op capping tank it was.

I completely agree that some classes deserved to get nerfed like engineer(remember when engineer could block the entrances into flag rooms? I dont, but I have heard enough complaints about its old self and some about the new stuff), and soldiers nerf was needed as well due to the inability to catch up to a soldier before, let alone kill one that has a medic. I think people abuse classes just to get it nerfed. I do think elves nerf was unnecessary because it ran out pretty quick(especially if you panic) normally.

I think some classes dont need to be nerfed, some need to be reworked(necro, and engineer respectively), Balancing the game sounds like it would make it more fun, but honestly, it doesnt. In fact, if you nerf some classes, the other classes have an advantage.

Anyways, good discussion. ^.^

 

Well if you ask me, ctf needs a complete rework. Every class, every aspect of the game from a pvp standpoint needs to be rebuilt from scratch and balanced individually.

Sadly, that probably won't happen but that's what it needs imo.

About elf: it's not that it's UP, but I think that because it doesn't have that one stand out ability (anymore) it seems very underpowered compared to the other classes of ctf. It's not able to fight very well, capping is so-so, and while it may be enjoyable to play, it's also very difficult to use effectively imo.

As for nerfing the outstanding abilities of classes, this is where I think the recent pyro rework is pretty good. Nerfs the instakill but adds in the true damage with the extra "frenzy" mode as an ability. I also had an archer rework/replacement where the headshot ability was removed, but it was given a better midrange/close quarters ability.

So yea, I agree with you.

 

Amen!

 

but BILL it's too complex (((

worst excuse i have ever heard ^

i do agree with the idea of giving classes multiple abilities, but I also believe people don't want that much change. There's a certain point where a class stops being itself when you add enough abilities. One of my favorite games on another server is called mega walls, and I love the way they have their kits designed. Each kit has 5 abilities, what items they get on spawn, mining, 2 passive skills, and a main skill. Medic fits this sorta well. It has 2 passives (natural regen, and can't be lit on fire,) a main abilitiy (can heal people,) and has items (well obviously.) I can never hope for this to actually be in the game, but it would be a good idea for a whole new game mode, and atleast some of the main abilities could be scrapped for it. Of course the main ability is the most strong one, and usually makes or breaks a class, but sometimes the others can make it have some appealing factor (medic having fire resis) This makes balancing classes way easier, and if every class has the same category of ability it shouldn't be too hard to pick up new classes.

tl;dr Yes it would be better and more balanced, but I can't ever see this being real

 

Sorry but I'm having a hard time reading this. "are"

 

I agree with this a lot, because it would make ctf more challenging in a fun way, and it would make someone who just bought a class like assassin or mage not as annoying because they have to learn how to play with that class without a super op ability. The only problem I see with this concept is putting it into practice. :I

 

Most people are against reworking CTF in a massive way, as one can easily tell by the amount of dislike to the removal of instakills. Believing that other classes should lose their 1 strength would be impossible for the CTF community to handle. It'd make CTF boring in the end, as somebody who dislikes instakills I still believe there should be a perfect imbalance. Having a multitude of classes that are well-rounded results in a boring feeling in comparison to the feeling of power given when you can kill things in 1 hit, tank things like a champ, or juggle players for days.

The argument presented is basically switching the current request: Instead of buffing Elf to fit a role in CTF, nerf CTF to fit Elfs mediocrity

 

The problem with 'outstanding abilities' is that often they are so strong it overshadow's a players skill. For example, old pyro's instakill made killing soldiers that tried to cap so easy that even if the soldier was way better than the pyro it would still die, and you were forced to choose medic if you want to cap on it. When what class you are using has way more impact than how good you are, that becomes a problem. Now pyro still has it's fire, plus the new unique mechanic, but it's not nearly as much about what class you play against it. Chemist and Soldier still have their unique mechanics, they are just more balanced now. The 'outstanding abilities have to make the game more interesting, not just for the player using them, but for the opponents as well.

 

Hi Admiral here and I disagree with everything in this post.

First off, I play a lot of Elf and it is infuriating to use. I honestly have no idea how anyone kills anyone who isn't a moving target with the pure element. It takes so much skill to do anything particularly well it honestly turns a class that could be a lot of fun into one that is basically miserable to use. It is, quite literally, the Work of Satan to a player like me who is not that great at PvP or hot-keying or doing trick-shots or whatever.

So, when I want to have fun I play Dwarf. I play Archer. When I want to have a good time I want to play something that doesn't take a ton of skill. I play something that IS exceptionally broken. I just want to be able to enjoy myself here! It is not fun for me to try over and over again to get kills or do most anything with a class because it takes a lot of skill. I want to play something that doesn't take a lot of skill, or almost none at all. I don't care if that unbalances the game to some degree, I want to have fun. That is how good game-modes work, they have OP abilities or classes that are friendly to new players, which makes the game fun for them to play to begin with and often is a reason for them to stick around and become skilled players.

CTF is a game that throws new players in with extremely experienced and team players. It is extremely unfair and dumb to make the game's classes skill based like Elf because it slants the advantage entirely to the skilled players. It makes CTF more of a "skilled kids club" than an actual game-mode that is reasonably welcoming to new players and that is exceptionally counterproductive. In short you are wrong.

I was one of the, as you so condescendingly put it, "whiners" about Elf's nerf and I'm proud to be one. The class received a nerf that was unreasonable and made the class much too difficult to play although it was tricky enough to begin with. I'm one of those strange people who think it should be buffed so that it is not only OP but it is so OP that even newer players can easily use it to do all kinds of things in CTF. Elf needs a buff so that it can be a fun class for all players, not just the few who have practiced it for hundreds of hours and other classes need reworks so they can be friendly to new players, while not being too powerful that it breaks the game.

 

I may be biased, but generally Bills have the best ideas. +1

 

You wanna know the sad thing about this? I think the admins wont listen. Its their game and they will do as they please, even if it disappoints the players who actually play the game. I'm new to the server but i can see already that many players have great ideas for stuff that arent even looked at. Its sad and players probably feel their time was wasted for making up a topic of their own ideas.

 

This is probably why so many people are putting their ideas in the main section instead of the section server ideas.

It's there for a reason, use it -.-

 

This is one of the most sensible posts I have seen in CTF in a long time. Unfortunately, if everbody wanted to play a game that almost completely depends on skill, people would play HG.

Mega walls almost entirely depends on having a leveled up kit so it's op. I don't want this in CTF.

 

How is this post sensible? How? @Billhelm's post is advocating for a form of CTF that would not only be less fun but it would totally screw over anyone who isn't a really skilled PvP'er. That is a terrible idea. We have OP abilities because they are fun to mess around with. That is literally what attracts a lot of new players, including me back in 2012, not semi complicated classes with moderate to high skill curves like Elf.

There are other players out there aside from the people who play on the "official" teams or who can't land crazy trickshots with Elf. I think we should show them a little consideration by making the game a little more fair for them instead of suggesting that we nerf the entire game, which makes CTF fun, more skill based, and far less friendly to new players. In other words, something like perfect imbalance like what @Tenshirox was talking about.

 

It is sensible because it would make CTF depend on skill instead of buying the classes, but as I have already said, I think CTF is better off as it is. There is already a game that depends on skill, HG.

 

That is the problem with it. I am not saying that doing well in CTF should depend on what class you have but it should not rely almost entirely on skill, which is basically what @Billhelm's post is saying. That is bad for CTF since it makes the game far less friendly to new players and in some ways creates more imbalance since it allows people who have mastered classes, like Elf, to have an even greater advantage compared to those who have not. CTF should put a premium on fun and it should not take a whole lot of skill to actually do that.

@obikenobi21 my issue here is that the design of elf is so skill based that making every or more classes like that is bad for the game for a number of reasons. Hence all the ranting ^^

 

imo yur both wrong. You can't go all one way or all another. Yes, CTF has to be fun, but at the same time skill needs to be a factor otherwise you end up with 1000 pyros and a bunch of frustrated heavies.

But to the main point, I think wat Bill's trying to say is that is he wants CTF to go more in the direction of Elf, not that Elf is laike perfect. The multiple abilities thing and so on, and those abilities can go into watever da faq @Admiral_Munson is saying about fun (I haven't really read da posts). The point is that CTF classes should have more options, and those options should be more flexible then dwarf's solid defense meta. Now, meta's will develop, but at least every class should be somewhat viable in all areas, and still not get completely zoned. That's more of what I think he's trying to say rather than a justification for Elf being currently balanced. It's not so much the current state of Elf as it is the design he's talking about.