Where are we now?

Ty for the to lazy to read XD

 

That's the thing though. You see people making post after post after post on whatever and often times these are serious posts, but it is not apparent that what they are saying is getting through. There are about 70 Necro rework or tweak threads in the server ideas section. Dozens of people have bought the class. In poll after poll after poll that I've done, and that others have done, there has been huge support for a Necro rework (around 87% of 61 respondents in the last poll supported a rework, with over 90% supporting either a rework or some minor changes). Yet what that rework is, based on what I've seen from the (now deleted) Google doc, not really a rework but more of a tweak of the current class with ideas taken from two ideas (@lasertagfighter's and Miskey's Necro reworks). Don't get me wrong it's great to see that staff do spend time on rework ideas.

But the "community opinion" (as far as it can be ascertained) on something like Necro has been known for over a year and it's been something along "rework it already!" I'm not criticizing staff or Brawl for not doing that already. CTF doesn't have a coder and there's a bunch of other servers (many of which I'd imagine are more profitable than CTF) that need to be worked on for various reasons. However it really does upset me that when you have community opinion that could not be clearer, and obvious community desire to have their opinions and ideas heard with regards to a rework (as indicated by the six dozen reworks proposed on the forums), staff will not share that rework with the community. I asked a staff member on Skype why that was a few weeks back and he told me it was because certain staff like to be in control of what's going on and that he didn't even know about a Necro rework until a day or two prior. Now @Nohox keeps saying that it's because staff don't want to unrealistically raise community expectations. I don't get that at all. How hard is it to add in a disclaimer like you (Nohox) did with your Dwarf rework when you shared it on the forums several months back and say "hey this is a thing that WILL eventually be coded in game but not for a few weeks/months."?

I have huge respect for most staff members. I really do. I just do not understand why, when community opinion could not be clearer and when the desire for the forums community to be part of the process is also very much there, that reworks like the Necro rework (which, as it has been repeatedly said, will be a thing one day) are deliberately kept in secrecy. So much secrecy in fact, that when I posted the Necro rework on the forums (a minor thing as @chickenputty told me) the thread is deleted and the Google Doc it was posted on is erased and replaced with (literally) "nothing to see here". People paid money for this class. Shouldn't they get an actual say (if they want it) in what happens with that?

 

I'm not into CTF at all, so everything I say is from a more general point of view. You will have to discuss the view of the staff on the community opinion with CTF staff members.

If there are about 70 threads each suggesting a different way to fix Necro, obviously only some can be taken into account. The fact that a majority supports a rework/minor changes shows that there is an issue, but I don't think it means the class has to be reworked - instead changes should be made that focus on fixing the issues. If a total rework is necessary to fix it, alright. If some changes and tweaks are enough to fix it, that should also be fine in my opinion.
If I'm just confusing words here, ignore the comment.

I do understand Nohox concern about sharing an update while not having any idea when it will be implemented. No matter how many disclaimers you pack into a thread, if you discuss a topic you also want to see it on the server and expect it.
Once a solution to the coder problem has been found and it is clear that a finished necro update could also be implemented, I believe the CTF staff would share and discuss their proposed update with the community. Then the community and the people who bought the class would have the chance to voice their opinion.

 

Thanks for responding. Appreciate it.

You're not confusing words but it's very clear that a huge majority of CTF Forumers (basically the only people who visibly care about fixing stuff and can be reliably surveyed) favor a rework to Necro, not just a few tweaks, but a full on rework. It's a change that has been anticipated for around three years now.

Right and that's fine. All I'm saying is, when you have something that you know will be implemented at some point (like a Necro rework), talk to the people who bought the class or who play your gamemode about it before you go ahead and create this whole thing that is based largely on what the staff team wants and then say "hey look what we did!" right before or right after it's added in game.

I mean would it be so hard to say something along the lines of "hey guys we've been thinking about doing a Necro rework for a while now and we'd like to discuss some ideas you (the community) want in it so if you have any post them below!" and then give those ideas some serious consideration? I know staff look at people's ideas but people don't know that unless they're constantly clicking on some staff member's username on the forums and seeing what thread they're looking at. What I said above, with regards to staff reaching out to the community (instead of lurking on the forums) from the start for feedback has already been done in four threads, three of them regarding tweaks and one with maps (@b0squet @Quarrelt @wintergreen3 ) and it's worked out every single time. For example, I made a list of 30 tweaks I wanted on @wintergreen3's thread and she was kind enough to give her thoughts on virtually all of them (hugely appreciated that, seriously) a few days later.

That's an issue I specified in the response to your last comment. I don't want the staff to be creating their own version of what they want implemented and sticking that to the forums community. Often times these proposals don't get changed that much and if they do they're still a reflection of what the staff thinks would work and not that of what the forum community thinks would work. That's the case because they're ideas created by staff and shared with staff. One of the main reasons why I'm upset about what's going on is the fact that no one outside a select few staff members is included in the idea-making process from day one which I see as absurd because I don't vote +1 on anyone's staff application because I want them to "represent my views" on what changes I want made or whatever. Naturally I want them to be at least somewhat invested in ideas and stuff because, as I see it, if you're going to be staff you should probably have some knowledge of all areas of the game. That said, I vote +1, +/- 0 or -1 based on whether or not some applicant has the maturity (judgement) and the experience to moderate the community and ref team matches. People like @Nohox or @Xelia_ are moderators, not administrators (or S-Mods), and some are not even invested in reworks and all that stuff whatsoever so why should they have more insight than people who may be creating ideas for years on how to change things up but aren't qualified to be staff or do not want to apply? These people are volunteers for goodness sake, why on earth should they be representatives for whatever they think the community wants with respect to various classes? It's a silly expectation and a bad system. The Necro rework that the staff came up with, which is less of a rework than a series of tweaks that make it somewhat less awful than before (just my opinion there) without fixing some of the core issues of the class (too dependent on mob AI, lack of melee damage). Like I said in the last post, there's been over seventy reworks made for this thing and community feedback was only taken for two of them. You're completely right that not everyone's feedback or opinion is going to be taken into consideration. But it should not be a thing in the first place where staff are going through the ideas section (and so forth) and picking and choosing what they like to put into a rework and ignoring stuff that they don't like. I think that exclusionary process just turns the whole process from something that should be all about what the forums community wants into something skewed towards what the staff wants.

Again I don't have anything (for the most part) against the CTF staff team nor against Brawl. I probably couldn't do the job that a lot of staff members, like yourself or @TheZombieKat do or put up with some of the sh*t they put up with (pointless drama, hate etc.) so I have a lot of respect for that. But I do not think that the staff team should be a filter for the community's ideas. If anything the only filter should be what a sizable majority of the forums community wants and thinks is acceptable because that's the only way you're ever going to see changes (imo) that most people are going to like and less spam of mindless hatred after some of these updates. Sure a lot of people might be happy with what the staff team has pulled out of their pandora's box of ideas at the start (Elf, Mage, CTF Tweak Update) and that's because updates have been infrequent since mid 2014 (again, the lack of updates is a minor point and not really a complaint of mine) so of course everyone says "glory hallelujah we got an update". But then after a few days people begin to have problems with the changes and suddenly you see threads like this, this, this, and this making solid points about major issues with various changes or asking for them to be revoked completely (with significant support). A lot of these issues could have been avoided by working with the forums community from the beginning instead of putting on this ridiculous pretense of "staff must be the rework people and have the major say in reworks" instead of the people without whom CTF would not have a playerbase. It doesn't need to be the way it is (imo).

 

I feel like what I said before applies to this: "Once a solution to the coder problem has been found and it is clear that a finished necro update could also be implemented, I believe the CTF staff would share and discuss their proposed update with the community. Then the community and the people who bought the class would have the chance to voice their opinion."
I hereby encourage the CTF staff team to post their proposed rework once a solution for the coder problem is found so the community can give feedback and ideas. The staff should of course also reply to the comments.

First thought: Less words next time pleaseeeee

This is not a logical conclusion, but you could say being involved in updates is one of the benefits the staff members get in return for enforcing the rules and being engaged in their free time.

In the end someone will always have to filter all the ideas, we can't let the community vote on everything. The staff members of a gamemode are not necessarily the best informed nor do they represent the community opinion perfectly, however, they are still usually active players and involved in the community. Due to the fact that there are various staff member and their diversity their opinion is also more balanced than the opinion of a single person.
As of now I can't think of an already established or easily establishable group of players that could do this work and also easily communicate with the Developers and Higher Staff to see if all this is possible.

I see how providing a full rework/update and only asking for feedback can limit the input the community can give, so to lessen the influence of the staff they could instead pick 5-10 suggestions from the community and the staff, slightly alter obvious flaws and then let the community decide which of the suggestions is the best and should be implemented. Do you think this would represent the opinion of the community better?

 

I don't agree with the underlying idea of "staff should come up with a rework and send it to the community" but that's a discussion for another time. @Bolded section - thanks for saying this anyway.

OKAY

Fine and I don't have an issue with that. I only have a problem with people, some of whom have not been involved very much in the whole "reworks and tweaks to classes" sort of thing (generally) having more of a say in those changes than people who are not staff and have spent a lot of time on it. You end up with the situation we've had for years (even when I was on the Idea Panel back in December - January 2014) where updates do not tend to reflect what a lot of people may want to see in the game.

Fair enough. I'd rephrase what I said in my post to something more along the lines of "the only filter should be upper level staff (s-mods, admins) once the forums community and the MODs/JMODs have come up with various ideas". Something like that. Point is, I'd like to see as much involvement of the forums community as possible in the idea making process.

I can't argue with that.

Yes I do. I think 10 suggestions or so would work out nicely so that there's more variation of ideas (versus 5) which could allow for more creative solutions to classes that most forumers have agreed only need minor tweaks (Mage) and enough suggestions to deal with a rework to a class like Necro.

 

Nice signature

 

thank you!