1. Welcome to the Brawl website! Feel free to look around our forums. Join our growing community by typing /register in-game!

Idea Medic - another healing idea

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by Ninsanity, Sep 25, 2017.

?

Poll yay! Do you like this idea or not?

  1. Yes (+1)

    5 vote(s)
    38.5%
  2. Kinda (+0.5)

    2 vote(s)
    15.4%
  3. Maybe (+0)

    1 vote(s)
    7.7%
  4. Meh (-0.5)

    2 vote(s)
    15.4%
  5. No (-1)

    3 vote(s)
    23.1%
Thread Status:
Please be aware that this thread is more than 30 days old. Do not post unless the topic can still be discussed. Read more...
  1. Ninsanity

    Ninsanity Yoshi Legend and Medic Main

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    539
    Ratings:
    +349
    Medic in the current ctf meta is essential for capturing the flag. It's healing ability is unparalleled by any other class in the game, and the only healing ability that can fully restore another person's inventory (including steak, but not including elf arrows). The healing ability gives regen V to the player, and if the player is at full health, all the items are restored. This obviously can be seen as an "insta-heal" ability, since the player will have the same stuff as if he just respawned. This can create problems which everyone at this point has seen. The biggest three problems this creates are:
    1) Stalemates occur frequently, often lasting for a large portion of the game (looking at you, blackout).
    2) Recovery becomes very difficult when a medic is around the flag carrier, even if the medic is there for only a few seconds.
    3) Medic teaming becomes a huge issue, as both medics can fully restore the other medics stuff, and thus becoming quite powerful.

    In response to medic's powerful healing ability, most people in the ctf community wants a good rework to medic which solves these issues, but still allows medic to heal people effectively. My hope in the idea I'm proposing is to help fix these issues, while also allowing medic's healing ability to be effective enough so that capturing the flag relies on having a medic there to support the flag carrier. Thus, here I present my idea of reworking medic:

    Inventory:
    - Only change one thing (maybe): Remove a steak.
    - Removing a steak will allow medic to be just a little more vulnerable. However, keeping sharp I will allow medic to not be totally defenseless against other classes.

    Armor:
    - Same as current.

    Abilities:
    - Passive Regen: same as current.
    - Healing ability (here's the big one):
    1. Keep the underlying idea of the ability the same, but modify it to accomplish what we want it to accomplish.
    2. Hitting a player gives that player regen IV (instead of current regen, which I think is V).
    3. When that player is at full health, hitting that player again gives back 1 steak/health + regen pot (if chemist) as well as fully restocking all other items (besides elf arrows of course).
    4. The cooldown will be the same, except lasting for 4-5 seconds (can be modified to be shorter/longer).

    The change to the healing ability I proposed I believe solves the issues stated above.
    1) Stalemates should last for a shorter amount of time, since the medic can only restore a steak every 4-5 seconds, giving recovery more time to recov the flag, given they put enough pressure.
    2) Recovering should be easier: as I stated above, even if the medic gets to the flag carrier for even a few seconds, the flag carrier could have its health fully restored, which is crazy OP. Now, if the flag carrier wants to be fully healed, they would have to be with the medic for way longer, giving recovery more of a chance to kill the medic/flag carrier. Add to that regen IV instead of regen V, the flag carrier can't just tank hits as easily if they were just hit once.
    3) Medic teaming: since medics has the most amount of steaks out of any class, but the same average pool of health of the classes (since of the armor), fully healing a medic from no health to full health would take at least 24-30 seconds. This makes two medics have a whole lot less potential to be dangerous.

    This rework also gives more emphasis to teamwork. If you can't keep your medic alive/keep your medic close when trying to cap, then you won't be able to get a full/substantive heal.

    The only thing I have sort of against this is the complexity of it. Obviously it isn't the most intuitive rework, but given it is based off of the current healing ability, I don't think that would be too much of a problem. Also, another good idea to add for medic, which has been proposed many times before, is add an additional icon above players heads to signify if that player needs more steak/health + regen pots.

    Additional ideas that could be implemented (not part of the rework I suggested, just there for variations of the rework):

    1) Instead of the cooldown being applied to the medic for a certain player, the cooldown will instead be applied to that player, meaning if one medic has healed that player in the past 4-5 seconds, no other medic could heal that player.

    2) (Suggested by tenshi :grinning:) Hitting the player once will give regen IV, and then automatically gives back the items as described in the healing ability part. Of course the cooldown will still take affect, but it does allow for less confusion for newer players as well as better passive ability and less active ability.

    Also, moving regen V to regen IV, classes wont be as invincible as they would be now (ninja won't be a fast, buffed, teleporting heavy for 5 seconds).

    So there ya go, my idea of what medic should be! Feedback and suggestions would be much appreciated!
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    #1 Ninsanity, Sep 25, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
  2. Spades_

    Spades_ Former CTF Mod

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2016
    Messages:
    793
    Ratings:
    +229
    So your idea is to have what used to be a full restore, only give back 1 steak, 1 pot, etc; as well as lower the regen down to IV? Would multiple medics each be able to give back a steak/pot? (Ex: 3 medics on 1 heavy gives back 3 steak. Not really an issue I'm just curious.) To me, this kinda pushes medic away from what it is: a support class, and makes it more of an individual class. I'd like your rework to include removing sharpness (personal preference). Although, this would help reduce the effectiveness of medic teaming, which imo is a large issue. With that being said, I have mixed feelings, but I like the ideas in general. +0.5
     
  3. lnformative

    lnformative Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2015
    Messages:
    568
    Ratings:
    +193
    So first, my thoughts on the heal ability change make me iffy in capping situation, when attempting to heal the flag carrier that is a soldier using a tactic like what ever TC does on blackout, I notice that it'd be difficult to hit the player more than once to give the carrier enough health to survive the countless bull**** thrown in their face. I don't know if that was helpful. Probably was useless as I don't have enough experience within the competitive environment or objective itself so ye sorry I leave noa
     
  4. Ninsanity

    Ninsanity Yoshi Legend and Medic Main

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    539
    Ratings:
    +349
    That is correct, multiple medics would be able to give back items per medic. I did address a solution to this at the end of thread if it's desired.
    Although it does nerf the healing ability, that doesn't push it away from the support role. It's still the only class that is able to fully restore items of a class, which is basically a necessity for capping, so it still definitely will be used for support. The point of the nerf is to emphasize teamwork, since the medic needs to stay with the flag carrier longer. And as I addressed in the OP, it simultaneously fixes issues like medic teaming and long stalemates.
    What I don't want to do is nerf too many aspects of medic. I focused my attention on the more OP aspects of the class, like large health pool and of course healing ability. So keeping sharp 1 keeps medic a balanced class, just balanced in the right areas.

    I don't think this is much of a problem, since if countless bull**** is thrown at their face, the flag carrier should probably die. I mean, one medic healing a flag carrier shouldn't outweigh half of the other teams damage. That's part of the point of the rework (addressed by number 2 at the top).
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Tenshirox

    Tenshirox C a p t u r e F l a g

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    651
    Ratings:
    +446
    I believe in combat situations the restoring of items is actually not the issue when it comes to Medic healing. Usually, youre able to restore a players inventory once they reach full health during openings. The big issue is when a Medic is healing a player that is being attacked, since the cooldown for healing does not apply until they get their hearts restored. This means that they get regeneration V as long as the player is healed while not at full health and can last for the entire fight making recovery really difficult if there is a competent medic spam healing.

    While your idea would ultimately work, I believe the issue will be less severe if the regeneration is brought down to IV and regenerating items is an automatic process that applies if the player reaches full health (So if the regen doesnt cap at full health, they lose out on getting items and the cooldown is applied). This would prevent the full-battle healing that usually occurs, meaning Medic's potency will be less powerful during combat situations while at the same time more efficient when passively healing.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Ninsanity

    Ninsanity Yoshi Legend and Medic Main

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    539
    Ratings:
    +349
    Already in thread tenshi xD. But I definetly agree with you (I find it annoying when I'm trying to kill a ninja, and that ninja gets healed, so I'm basically dead cause of regen V).

    About the auto regen of items, I'm not too sure, I'll add it to the list of ideas. It could work, it also couldn't work. If we do implement it, then it puts less emphasis of keeping the medic around the flag carrier, since all we have to do is hit the flag carrier once, and then again 5 seconds later, etc. But then again, it definitely could work, so I'll add it to the additional ideas list.
     
  7. Tenshirox

    Tenshirox C a p t u r e F l a g

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    651
    Ratings:
    +446
    I did notice the reduction of Regen IV but I forgot to mention that. It is definitely a risky idea but I believe that it would make flag carriers more vulnerable. What I have in mind with the idea is that if you arent able to kill the player, at least you can prevent them from regenning items until the cooldown is over again. This creates a bit more thoughtful gameplay, which Medics selecting to heal when theres less risk and recovery focusing on attacking whilst in the regeneration period. Though how it actually plays out in-game can differ greatly.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. iWatchPaintDry

    iWatchPaintDry Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    396
    Ratings:
    +77
    GANGMEMBERNIN If I could give you a +500 for this I would
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  9. Miskey

    Miskey Leader of Annihilation | Former Media Manager

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    2,283
    Ratings:
    +1,370
    Discord:
    Miskey#5326
    Posting here now so I remember to respond later.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. CommunistBelgian

    CommunistBelgian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2015
    Messages:
    1,689
    Ratings:
    +457
    Discord:
    Unifier#8807
    I like this idea, see no problems with this. +1
     
    #10 CommunistBelgian, Sep 26, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
  11. Spades_

    Spades_ Former CTF Mod

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2016
    Messages:
    793
    Ratings:
    +229
    Okay. +1
     
  12. Dequoy

    Dequoy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2017
    Messages:
    113
    Ratings:
    +50
    +1 from me.

    I like the overall concept.

    I do wonder something though:
    If the healing cooldown applies to the healed player instead of the medic for that specific player, would other classes still be able to heal that same healed player during the cooldown period, such as mage heal spells, heal potions, cake slices, etc? Or would it be more of a hard "all-inclusive" healing cooldown where it's only steaks or self-healing that will work until the cooldown is finished?
     
  13. ExtremeEvoboost

    ExtremeEvoboost CTF Media Man

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2015
    Messages:
    906
    Ratings:
    +200
    +1
    Nothing fills me with more dread as a recovery heavy or mage (heavy having high damage output but only at a very close range, and mage damage output is simply not high enough to take down a players steak/healpots twice in one recovery attempt, especially with the 5 second invulnerability) then a medic reaching the flag carrier first.
     
  14. Ninsanity

    Ninsanity Yoshi Legend and Medic Main

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    539
    Ratings:
    +349
    I would say yes, but of course that could be changed (I don't see why though).
     
  15. EmperorTrump45

    EmperorTrump45 Dank Memer

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2015
    Messages:
    2,796
    Ratings:
    +2,157
    +1

    not sure how I feel about this. While it'd be fine for tankier classes it would suck for weaker classes which need steak + high health regen to survive fights (i.e. Pyro, Engineer, Elf - to an extent). Also this system would have to be made very clear to new players/people unfamiliar with medic as even right now, where you only have to hit someone once after heal, a lot of medics don't do it. I mean it literally says 'hit player x again to restore their items!' on the screen and people don't see it, ignore it, etc. lol

    Tendency for games to stalemate is also dependent on the map. Games on ship battle, when it was around, could last forever because you could camp the flagroom with engineer turrets & necro spawners while your carrier is derping around on one of the masts or whatever

    +1 for regen IV

    -1. This is the opposite of encouraging teamwork

    +1 would also be less harsh nerf on medics heals, which more people would have an easier time adjusting to, & much easier to explain.

    as a sidenote... if medic's heal is going to be nerfed, Mage's should as well. Good mages can kite an entire team, do a ridiculous amount of damage, and still live - thanks to a regen V heal that's up 5 seconds more frequently than Medic's.
     
  16. Ninsanity

    Ninsanity Yoshi Legend and Medic Main

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    539
    Ratings:
    +349
    Yeah, the excact cooldown is iffy for me as well, hence the "can be modified" phrase.

    Concerning that, I tried my best to make this rework match the idea of the current healing ability. It still uses the idea of hitting players with your swords to give regen, and then hitting them again to restore items. All that is added is the fact you have to hit more than two times to restore items. So the hindrance to newer players is not the fact that in this rework players need to hit more than 2 times, its the fact that players already don't know you have to hit players more than 1 time. I, as well as others elsewhere, have suggested to put an icon of somesort above players heads showing that they need item regeneration/steak regeneration.

    This issue was also present with the pyro rework a while back. It was quite different from the old pyro, with new and updated mechanics. We put a help message whenever you selected pyro (which I think is still there), and it makes it obvious as to how to use the new pyro. A similar thing could be done for this rework, with a message every time you select medic, explaining the new medic and a few strats. Of course some people will still ignore that, so no matter what rework we make, no matter how hard we try to communicate to them, we can't change the fact that they will ignore these messages.

    Yeah, and this is the hard place of balancing classes like medic. In some cases like stalemates and small-medium games, medic becomes a powerhouse and can carry an entire offense, but in larger games on certain maps like the one you described, even the current medic can't do that much. But I think that comes down more to the overall meta than just medic's support ability.

    Just an idea if people wanted it implemented. I agree I do not want this, but I put it there for people to see variations of this rework.

    Agreed, and thanks for the feedback :stuck_out_tongue:
     
  17. justin_dana

    justin_dana Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2021
    Messages:
    5
    Ratings:
    +0
    The one problem I have with this rework is that angel becomes just better medic due to its ranged healing ability and low cooldowns which is silly. Also I don't know if regen 4 is gonna make all that much a difference, as heavy IDK about other classes but regen 4 basically the same as regen 5. As heavy both make you dang near un-killable.
     
Loading...
Similar Threads Forum Date
Idea MeDiC wEbS FaVoRiTiSm Capture the Flag Aug 26, 2020
Idea Medic/Necro's Steak/Pot Visibility Capture the Flag May 2, 2020
Idea /md particle effects for Medics to see? Capture the Flag Apr 23, 2020
Petition to alter Medic Achievement from 100k healing Capture the Flag Sep 28, 2019
Idea Medic webs Capture the Flag Aug 4, 2019
Thread Status:
Please be aware that this thread is more than 30 days old. Do not post unless the topic can still be discussed. Read more...