Content Cop: People who defend headshots

First off, you misquoted the TL;DR by taking it out of context.

Second, if you remove the archer instant kill, you can't easily take out an engineer next. You have to charge in there and pvp them. If its a single engineer, it should be simple, but if there are multiple, it will be very difficult, a task made much simpler by an archer with an instant kill.

You can't save flag carriers from people trying to recover. If you put a true damage bleed, you'll only make the recoverer easier to kill. If there are more than one person trying to recover, the flag carrier is still dead. What happens if you hit with more than one arrow? The recoverer killed the flag carrier before you could hit with your second arrow.

If the flag carrier kills your defenders and escapes half way across the map, you can't kill them from range to prevent a cap.

If you don't have an archer instant kill you can't shut down specific routes on a map, forcing people to take alternate routes that are beneficial to your team.

Removing the instant kill will make people less likely to aim their shot because it doesn't have such a devastating effect, actually increasing arrow spam instead of reducing it.

There are some of your reasons.

As for the test server, that's a very valid idea that should be done. The only way to confirm either of our points is to test out all scenarios.

 

A arrow does not do more damage because it have flown further. The energy it has in form of velocity just decreases over time. So i am sure you think arrow should instakill on any range. Lol

Ps. You started this bs... dont complain

 

I recently got a new computer, finally allowing me to play on a high enough render to play archer without being blind of half of the map. I haven't played a single game on archer, normal games or matches, where I felt the class was at all balanced. I'd agree with true damage bleed idea, but reworking Archer is tricky. It's a free class that essentially hasn't changed since being introduced into the game (yeah there have been some small changes, but the headshot has remained consistent). However, I am a fan of Archer having an Instakill, but it shouldn't be as easy or should have more counterplay. Recently I've been playing a lot of league and overwatch, games that are both riddled with instakills but are considered by the vast majority of the community to be balanced. I'm interested in seeing what is done to Archer in the future.

 

Headshot should stay you're just salty about being killed

 

Why not introduce the same thing that was done for pyro with archer? When pyro got its instakill taken away, it was introduce with the frenzy system. The frenzy system takes a lot of hearts away from the player but it doesnt essentially instakill them. 3.5 hearts per hit sounds legit, and on top of that you have frenzy mode which occurs once you double right click. If the next coder can somehow do the same thing, then archer would become more balanced. So why not have an arrow take away for exp. 3.5 hearts away from every hit, And with each hit, their XP bar increases, and when its full they have an option t0 release an arrow that either delivers an instakill or does a lot of damage. Or you can have a system where with each hit, the amount of damage gets higher and higher, just like pure element on an elf. Also reducing the armor from all chain to just head and leg chain and gold armor for chest and leggings would also be nice. We dont always have to reduce the amount of steak too, we can just lower the amount of hearts that the steak adds in and still keep the amount of steak the same. Just a proposal, but I think that this could really work.

 

I like some of what your saying here about a rework, perhaps you could take it a step further and punish archers for inaccuracy by taking away 4 arrows for every missed shot (which would also make bowspamming defunct as a method of defending yourself.) Maybe even make every successful full-power hit from normal HS distance do like 4 hearts true damage but also add 1/3 to a XP bar, and missing decreases it by 1/6. After a full bar the player can do 8.5 full hearts and 4 seconds of wither damage. (Draining the bar to 0 again)

 

idk how you didn't find it tbh it's written right there

 

Yea no. This insanely nerfs archer. I don't know if you realize this, but at my absolute best, I can hit maybe 50-70% (give or take) of my shots in a 10 shot volley, on separate people. And that's if they aren't trying to dodge. Generally that doesn't last very long. Hitting someone consecutively from long range, believe it or not, is actually fairly difficult. Get one hit, they'll start dodging. Miss to many, and you lose your chance. So basically, you can get one, maybe two hits on them which will amount to about 2 steaks at the most, and then they're gone.
Not only this, but you also suggested changing the chain mail to chain legs and the rest gold. lol. This really doesn't do anything, and archer doesn't really need to be any worse in CQC after your proposed nerf. Generally if you largely nerf one area, you'd need to add an aspect in another area or change something else about the class in order for it to, yknow, not be useless.

Anyway, on to the actual thread. As a player who plays not only archer, but a lot of other things, I know how annoying archer can be. However, after playing archer as long as I have, I also know why it is really imperative to the game.
1. Soldier. Considered by most to be the main/best capturing class. "But Brandino soldier can be easily countered by a good defense and recovery!" Eh. Only sometimes. If a soldier gets out relatively untouched on a map like blackout, good luck trying to recover. Usually it takes a team of ninjas + other people. This has been demonstrated numerous times in team matches with archer banned. And of course, they were praising the archer ban, because it was so easy to get out and across the map, and eventually get the capture.

2. Medic + anything with armor teaming. This one's pretty obvious, and it's also a reason that recovering on Opposites Collide is not very fun. Medic + heavy teaming, medic + soldier teaming (the worst imo), medic + medic teaming, etc. Any damage you do is nullified once you die to the rest of the support. Given, archer is not the only way to recover, but usually assassin is pretty limited, and pyro dies fairly easily/can be escaped by either being a medic, or simply running/steak spamming. Archer's instakill is another effective solution to these kinds of stalemates, making the game more fast paced.

3. Engineer. No one but the engi likes the class, it teleports 20 players to your flag in a minute, and is a bear to take down if the engi is smart and has support, which 90% of the time it does. 'Nuff said.

I realize you have said that you are not assuming that no other changes would be made to other classes, but yknow. Currently, we have other things to focus on.

I have a couple of other things, but I have to do some college work now, so gbye.

 

Well........

Then how about just nerfing bowspam. That's the main problem with archer really, its really easy to bowspam and once people do it they dont stop. I have two options that can help limit/or eradicate bowspam. 1: You can use an xp bar that is full when you first start. The xp bar doesnt drop with each shot thats fully drawn back and also shots that arent fully drawn back. In most cases of bowspam, the player shoots more that 4 arrows in a span of 1 ~ 1.5 seconds. When people start doing that, the xp bar goes down and when its empty, the player cannot shoot anymore arrows until the bar is atleast 3/4ths the way full. This doesnt affect any insta kill abilities, as well as limit bowspam. Just a proposal. But it would be best if the rework focused more on bowspam than on instakills. If bowspamming is removed, then it makes the class less abuseable, making the community happy again. :/

 

What

 

Completely agree with that, bowspam is dumb af lol Interesting idea with the xp bar lol, I think the most common idea is to remove the punch and give archer like 10 regenerating arrows or so, with a regen time of like 3 seconds or something.

 

Searching "Archer" on google obviously isn't going to say "Archers instakill people". >,>

BARRIER AROUND SPAWN DDD (I know there's on in spawn, but one a few blocks out of spawn should be..... placed?)

 

Funny how the only sensible answer to this is completely avoided. In the original thread I told people not to run in a straight line and to avoid chokepoints, which seems pretty simple, right? Seems like it would solve all your problems? But, no, @Dankmastr_Memesn doesn't even mention it and @LordCh4os dismisses it as ridiculous because my example wasn't 100% perfect.

Now, you two aren't going to like this, but I think you're just salty about dying all the time. Considering how every time @LordCh4os is online I see him arguing with someone, I don't think that's too much of a stretch. I've offered you guys a solution and you're just going after the low hanging fruit.

 

No, I dissmissed it because it relied on ridiculous assumptions, not because it was not quite 100% perfect. Let me explain just on the valley of ruin map given that's where you were using those drawings.

So you're saying that the "stupid" people tended to use the easiest way right out of spawn, which is a choke point and a lot of people tend to get headshot there. I wouldn't call it stupid because if you do avoid being headshot then it does take considerably less time to reach the flag, meaning you could potentially capture faster, but that's besides the point. People also sometimes move in groups at choke points because likely the archer can't headshot all of them but again, going on a tangent. Nevertheless, it's pretty obvious newer archers see a choke point and try to exploit it, so you're going to be at a higher right. on valley of ruin however the distances are pretty close to the 30 block headshot zone rather than 60, 70. 80 potentially on some other maps. Now as I've already mentioned that gives you about a quarter second window to react to and avoid an arrow, which is not a lot of time if you're strafing. If you are strafing, archers tend to be able to predict you anyway after a few seconds observing a strategy (unless you're an assassin main in which case you can change speeds and makes it easier for you to strafe, you're an assassin main right?). Regardless those time windows aren't a lot of time to react, especially when you don't have as much mobility as a ninja etc. The alternative of course is to avoid the choke point as you say, except on valley of ruin, absolutely every path to the flag has quite a considerable amount of time open to headshots. There also tend to be quite a number of archers on at one time so not all of them will be looking at the choke point too. Going underground, any time you're in the waterfall area you can be shot, on the valley sides you can be shot, you can be shot going in and out of the tunnels on the side, through the holes in the trees and of course if you were to run on the enemy side where the archers are you risk coming into direct contact with the enemy offense. Not as risky as using the chokepoint perhaps, but still pretty damn risky, and all of it in pretty close headshot range, meaning you have a small window of time to dodge if you were to. Whichever way you go on VoR you're at a high risk of being headshot, and I think your idea not being 100% perfect is very largely understated.

Your vague assumptions just because I like arguing are irrelevant so I'm not going to get involved with those shallow comments. I dismissed your arguments not simply because they weren't totally perfect (which is an understatement) but because there are some major flaws fundamentally with that on valley of ruin, and other maps too. Given you are an assassin main you do have to take into account you can change speeds which does have implications on your ability to strafe the other classes don't necessarily have. A lot of people actually follow your "method" and still get headshot a lot.

 

Ok first of all I main fashionista now

You're not supposed to react to arrows, you're supposed to act unpredictably so that the archers don't know where to shoot in the first place. This is true for every map, including VoR: if you take the underwater route furthest from your spawn, you won't get headshot. If you walk along the hill outside of your opponent's player render distance, and hide behind the second row of trees, you won't get headshot either.

Every map has a different route you can take, and everyone is able to strafe and stop and start. It's not a difficult concept.

 

Apologies, it was midnight and I was very tired, so that statement may have been unclear. I meant we have other classes to focus on first, before we look at archer.

Love how this thread is getting heated l0l

 

Headshots are og. And frankly The ogness has already been wasted (Pyro instakill etc.)