Idea New Chemist Is Awful

Mad lad

 

Chemist is dumb strong bad chemist players Now look good like me and good chemist players are unstoppable. (Maybe you can increase the damage pot mana cost a little bit, and take away chemist resistance while it has regen on, so it’s not as tanky?)

I dunno if mage needs both the armor and the damage spell range, but maybe for comp it does

Pyro frenzy is necessary for recovering on stalemates, but yeah is a bad mechanic for flagroom defense if a pyro hits one person four times it’s almost a guaranteed kill on anyone they want it to be on.

I’m cool w ninja eggs

I love scout, just like yesterday I swapped someone holding the flag into their spawn as scout for the recov, very fun mechanic and not as big of a deal

 

As a chemist main, I think that chemist is pretty OP at the moment too and that the buff was too much. In my opinion, it probably just needed protection I on helmet and boots and a bit less XP for the damage potions.
I think eggs are fine now that blindness has been removed, I feel like with a good aim it is not horrible to fight ninjas anymore but a cooldown to the eggs as you mentioned could still be great, especially if chemist gets reverted/balanced (as it is an awesome ninja counter now).
I don't agree for mages because good mages are almost impossible to reach except with ninja or in really close places and it needs to be really weak at melee. It is not a really good class in competitive (except with great teamwork) because its damage is limited but I think a buff to it would make it even more annoying in casual. I don't mind that much for the extra range of damage spells though, it could make the class more effective.
As for scout, I think being able to swap people and especially the flag carrier into the void is great because it could help to stop stalemates which are a problem in my opinion, and even if it is annoying because you can't recover from it, I think you can prevent being swapped by dodging the snowball and it is not as broken as archer headshots which are almost infinite (you can repeatedly shoot arrows at people and don't put your "life" in danger)
I agree for pyro in the sense that it was supposed to be the core defense and was the most legitimate and balanced instakill. The only problem I see about assassin is the ping difference between players that makes it sometimes unfair to people who get assassinated while they are blocking. And yes archer headshots are still ridiculous, I don't even understand why it hasn't been nerfed a single time apart from the punch even though you have the ability to instakill people every like 3 seconds while being completely safe, forcing your opponents to almost constantly target you to "counter" you.

 

I also feel like chemist is a bit too tanky right now. I like to see chemist stronger, but I do think chemist is a little bit too strong now.

I also agree with you. I think eggs need a nerf even if the blindness got removed. In general, with the speed, the sword and the pearls, a ninja is already pretty strong, so I would like to see eggs being nerf a little more.

I totally agree with that. I'm also not a big fan of scout, but I do think the class is needed in the game. Right now scout is really strong and I've suggested some changes to it in a previous thread. Swapping in the void is definitely something I would like to see removed from the game. I agree to say that scout is a class to help recovery, but recovering by swapping in the void is something I think the game should not allowed to do. We put a new class in the game that can have so much potential, but people are using it to swap someone into the void...

For me, mage and pyro are fine like they are right now, I don't think they need to be changed.

 

Hooooo.... This has been a long time coming. I’m so happy I’m not the only one who thinks chemist is rediculous right now. While in a competitive setting chemist is just a tad bit stronger than other capping classes but because there is always a ninja/pyro and almost always coordination they can be taken down, but in casual (where most of the playerbase lies and where we get new players) they are practically invulnerable. Unless you have one of the pro defense mains on your team, your butt is gonna get rolled by two chemists and their medic friends.

 

I had no idea they buffed chemists mana, this explains quite a lot. In any case, I completely agree that chemist is really strong right now. It can both tank an entire flagroom and peel them off of them as they run away. If they have a medic its basically over, as you need an insta-kill.

I think ninja would honestly be fine with 2/3 eggs that regen. Personally it wouldn't affect the way I play at all, Im not sure how others are abusing eggs however. I think the whole cooldown only starting when eggs reach 0 is a bad idea because that actually incentives spamming the eggs you do have to recover them later.

I've actually been playing a bit of mage recently, and while yes its super weak up close it should be. The thing which Mage is you really only have a couple of seconds of hitting them unless the mage is in a corner or bad. A good fix would to just make lightning more consistent but idk how you'd do that. Maybe shift right click to call it on yourself? The only thing I think Mage is really weak against is multiple opponents, it just sucks at taking on more than 1 person at a time especially in any enclosed space. The range buff on the damage spell seems fine to me though, it would match the flame spell more which just makes more sense.

I personally have no issue with void swapping. Its a super risky thing for a Scout to do as they have to basically throw themselves into the void and if they miss its over. A scout would probably be more useful death tagging and actually hitting the flag carrier.

I think Pyro needs its flint and steel changed to something more dynamic. Maybe an explosion around itself, a speed boost, some cc, anything that gives pyro the ability to do something other than sit there with its bow drawn. An alternative is reverting the bow back to what it used to be. Since Pyro no longer insta-kills, I don't see a reason why it can't detonate any arrow it fires rather than only ones with a fully drawn bow.

Assassin just needs a rework. I actually disagree with @SoCool21 in that the mind games are boring, to me its the most interesting part of playing the class. If assassin had a super clear particle when it used its redstone it would be almost completely useless because it becomes even more one-dimensional.

 

The main concern with chemist for me is that existing is just about as easy as it is with any other class—except you get rewarded for it as buffed chemist. There is no reason that playing the game with moderate CPS and being able to hotkey (or scroll) competently should reward you with killing skilled players.

I'd recommend a strict cooldown on ninja eggs: a cooldown of a larger amount like 10 seconds for the very first generated, then 5 for each consecutive egg generated without throwing another. This means you can be patient and relatively easy restore all of them but you don't just get an egg every 5 seconds.

From what I've seen, mage's strength lies in its ability to straddle the line between safety and aggression, ultimately giving it a position of power. That being said, that line is way too thin, as any sort of lack of control (such as literally any other player walking up to you) pushes you over the line. Sure, if played perfectly, mage is incredibly powerful. But if close to perfect still isn't good enough, the mage is balanced poorly, regardless of its theoretical potential. In my opinion, there should just be more leeway in regards to what you can get away with as mage. Misplaying should always exist, but minor miscalculations shouldn't prevent you from playing to any effect whatsoever.

Addressing the concern with scout: it does feel really cheesy, and I agree for the most part.
The level of cheese and gimmick to the idea is kind of like two mages freezing a single target indefinitely, or the same with elf vortex.
There is one reason these two things aren't seen as a problem. If the cheese is powerful and commonplace, it needs to be dealt with. Locking a single target using two premium classes with coordination using a combination that can't be used in an official match isn't by any means commonplace, or even that powerful, seeing as you have to use two players just to shut down one.
As it turns out, the power of the scout swap is much higher than just indefinitely locking someone in place. The power is absolute, seeing as it leads to an instant kill on all but three classes, two of which are premium (and almost always still kills soldier on maps like Bazaar where the coal ore is right next to ground level). It's also pretty commonplace, as you can do it in officials, and you don't need another player.
On the other hand, as people buy and practice scout, they will eventually realize that taking such a risk can lead to losing caps against carriers, while scout's death tag has much more value as far as killing individual targets goes. If the same can be achieved with the very considerable power of death tag (which remains in effect after death) with much more control and consistency, why would anyone go for the risky play? The only time to do it is when you don't have any other option, and in that case, it seems like a cute little tech option against some capping classes.
That being said, though, I agree. The last point I want to make is that archer shares a very similar issue: long range, projectile-based, uninteractive instant kills that can be "dodged," but for which there is no active counterplay. For the most part, there should be no uninteractive way to kill your opponent in regards to swapping or headshots.
More on archer coming.

I think your point for pyro depends on which iteration we're talking about.
No draw instant explosion instakill? I really disagree. On demand instakills without needing to prepare in any sense is uninteractive. Medic had no sharpness. Fire resistance still doesn't do anything, just like during that time, and overall, pyro ran uncontested. It got to the point where you could hold flag as pyro, and as long as no ninjas or assassins came to recov (and even then, if you were smart with arrows and had a medic) you could actually farm a very high killstreak without needing to try too hard. That isn't to say killstreaks matter too much on their own, but they speak volumes about power level.
I do agree that full charge pyro was balanced, however. Instakills are fine if you get to die in 2 hits to buffed ninja. There's counterplay. Teamwork being required to beat a strategy doesn't mean you can't beat it; it just means if you complain, you're too lazy to use teamwork.
Current pyro is slightly underpowered, and actually almost balanced. But not in the same way as old pyro. Before, it was risk/reward. You played with fire, pun intended. Now, it's closer to the middle, which means pyro doesn't get as hard countered, but it doesn't do as much either. The result is pyro's presence and importance is lower, which is nice (no one likes relying on a single class for its entire defense), but it also means its easier to shrug off pyro's attacks and honestly to just ignore it. Combined with the aforementioned chemist issues, chemist capping is a breeze against pyro (not to mention ever other class).

I already briefly mentioned archer, but I want to be clear that archer is unacceptable in its current state. I'm sorry to everyone who abuses it and says they're good at playing an instakill class, but if assassin needed a nerf from 2 regenerating instakills and speed 3, archer needs a nerf from 128 instakills that can be restored by medic, can be hit from almost anywhere on the map, can hit ninja, and can only be blocked by a single, premium, class. That isn't to mention that archer has more survivability against ninjas who decide to focus it on offense. Chain armor and multiple healing items more than makes up for having a stone sword, especially against a class with no armor. Assassin is getting 2-shot by ninja and 3 shot by just about everything else and got another (albeit needed) nerf that just showed even more how powerful archer was.
As a testament to archer's power level: Blackout is the smallest, most mobility polarizing map that has ever existed, and the original is often played in matches and PPMs. The map is extremely popular.
Soldier and ninja run rampant on that map because it takes about twice as long for any other class to get anywhere if they aren't already waiting where they need to be. If you're not running soldier offense and soldier defense, you're probably losing. If you're not ninja capping or ninja defending, you're still probably losing.
So what makes Blackout bearable against this overwhelming offensive pressure? How do lower mobility classes keep up?
Archer. Archer gets instakills from a distance, mitigating the power of XXXX as an offensive spot for medic. It also helps to prevent soldiers and ninjas from taking flag and never dying once out of the flag room. Archer is so necessary on Blackout that you lose without one.
Again, I want to stress that the two best capping classes in the entire game on one of the best capping maps in the entire game are balanced by archer.
Archer, whose instakill relies on great distance, is the thing that balances the smallest map.
Archer, lacking in a mobility ability, balances the entire power of high mobility offense (and webs) with an instakill.

Sorry for the long post, but I really feel strongly about all these topics (especially archer), and you've given me a damn good reason to talk about them.

Best.


Gonna be a long edit:
The main reason I brought up premium classes so often is that the concept of a basic class should be powerful, basic, and conceptually easy to understand and play. Basic classes should allow new players to learn the basics of the game. When something dominates basic classes, I see it as unhealthy for someone trying to learn how to play.
Excellent example:
Besides simply having a numbers advantage, the only simple counters to mage are all generated by premium classes: ninja's mobility and burst damage, assassin's unblockable instakill, chemist's buffs, and to a lesser degree elf's mobility, decent PvP, and shield all combined. This can all be dealt with, but it's much easier to kill mage this way.
You need 2,000 credits to counter mage if you want the easy way out, but dying over and over isn't conducive to getting 2,000 credits. If you know what you're doing, good for you for being able to kill mage. But how many new players already know how to kill mage?

 

instead of an egg cooldown how about just remove the kb from them entirely. this would allow ninjas to still use whatever amount of eggs they want but not make them untouchable from the kb. i feel like adding a cooldown for ninja is a horrible idea.

for mage buff the lightning spell and nerf the damage spell imo. remove kb from the damage spell but increase the range and kb from the lightning spell with a small damage boost. the class needs to be squishy and weak to melee attacks to balance out its ranged dominance.
for the heal spell, instead of a potion being thrown how about it's cast onto the mage itself with high regen and maybe resistance? and when right clicked on a player it'd cast the heal spell onto that player. spitballing ideas.

scout could do a quick block check for any block under it within 20-ish blocks right after it switches. if no block is found in that check the switch wouldn't execute with the message, "Cannot switch - unstable platform" or something along those lines.

assassin needs a rework entirely imo. idk how exactly to do it though.

i'm always for a pyro buff so sure

idk anything ab chemist

 

o sweet baby this is juicy, i love me some thicc text walls

Seriously now (ill make each quick to the point while being clear)...

I do agree chemist went slightly overboard. I like the resistance as it is (possibly removing it after it steals the flag as @Cardona360 suggested), but I believe the mana cost, most especially for using damage pots, should be increased and is where initial due change imo would be most fit. From there, we can get a better picture of how effective/OP the class is compared to the rest of the meta.


I agree that ninja eggs should be 'nerfed' --most specifically speaking, *slightly limited, for example what @obikenobi21 and many others have suggested, for the egg count to be at 2/3rds of the current total with automated egg regeneration (similar to medic webs)
... on the topic of medic webs, reduce the total to 3 instead of 5, so there literally can no longer be anymore "web spam" (...and just increase the automated web restore rate if necessary)


mage is and always has been interesting ...and, lets emphasize, annoying... it's kinda fun to play, but its also pretty useless (esp compared to playing other classes esp while buffed) unless ur aefrogdogman, because, in an ideal defensive-midfield mage scenario, what happens is that ppl cannot kill the mage and it takes an eternity for the mage to kill things ... which isnt quite fun for any1 ... so what i suggest is make it slightly easier for ppl to reach the mage (so they can kill it easier) while increasing mage's damage output per minute, so it can kill things faster and be more fun/motivating and useful in the game : now I believe this can be done through a combination of a variety of tweaks...
(i.e. give mage slowness I --and/or-- damage spells no longer deal knockback,
while as damage spells deal more damage --and/or-- as damage spells have greater range,
perhaps also as armor decreases slightly while reducing heal spell cooldown)
...which could also turn out to be a cool little meta change if we tweak it enough to be a slight general mage buff
@Trebr @mage mains (can ppl pls tag them in a reply below)


scout is cheeky...a little too cheeky. On top of a slight death-tag nerf as Cardona/Swit have mentioned, I propose and have proposed within staff and in streams that for everybody to be able to completely block a scout snowball swap IF the player blocks just before the snowball hits them (*cough* scout is just a fancy smancy assassin from another realm). This is fair in every regard bc the majority of the time the flagcarrier or somtimes random defenders are blocking, so theres not going to be any OP unstoppable cheekiness going on. When ppl arent blocking (to avoid a headshot or incoming recov), they are usually moving (if ur pyro, sux2suk), so it would already be harder to complete a successful swap. When ppl are blocking, they arent attacking the offense or theyre not running away from the recov. So I really dont see a reason to not add this, besides the "minecraft 15.149 doesnt have the sword blocking mechanic in it" ... but we along with other servers dont see this upgrade anytime in the foreseeable future, and if it does come around, use @ItalianPenguin idea...

Spoiler

for giving players a 2nd item to hold in their offhand when they want to block when holding their sword, which, when used aka when blocking, it would give the player an armor buff/resistance equivalent to the damage reduction when blocking and slowness VI or w/e is the equivalent to blocking with a sword ... so there would literally be no difference

or just come up with new classes and class reworks when that time comes.
----Also give scout a small double jump ability, so it can do some crazy fun swap maneuver attempts off the belltower/void and then back onto safe ground, etc etc ... we're looking for balance AND fun ppl, and my two suggestions above, along with tweaks, I think would create that.

I like assassin (dont touch my baby). But seriously, I think it's one of the most balanced classes in the game, despite being extremely untimely with higher ping - but if u want to easily counter it, have some1 on your team go ninja (chemist too), ez money. Also refer to the Spoiler suggestion above for a potential future work-around. However, I still dont see enough in-game pop-up messages telling me how to block.


rip pyro ... like honestly, im surprised ppl still like it and play with it, bc all the noobs rage quit the class and i lowkey internally did too. It now has kinda laughable defense for how low, or sometimes randomly ridiculously high (w/ frenzy), damage output pyro has while being inherently immobile, which imo, compared to its MCPVP state, has made it worse for Brawl and slightly more unbalanced in every scenario for its unpredictability and pvp & hotkeying skills it now requires....so, crazy enough, I still see reverting pyro almost completely back to its MCPVP state would be the best "tweak" for it. It would be 2-3 shottable, but it will 1 shot things - so noobs and pros can more often have fun with it for sure. Everyone would be on their feet, especially if you want to easily counter it with ninja (or counter-counter with defensive ninjas). To keep it slightly better balanced, the fully pulled back bow ought to still be necessary and the flint and steal could remain somewhat as is and potentially even give it slowness I to slightly help enemies counter it. ----or, I do agree with with @obikenobi21 proposal to revert the specific aspect of the bow so it can still shoot out a fire explosion if the bow isnt pulled back all the way...so to not inherently promote the typical (exposed/weak/vulnerable/not fun) camping fully-bow-drawn-back defensive pyro who has 1 shot with the bow until frenzy use comes around ...and with this, damage output while the enemy is on fire and during frenzy could be adjusted slightly for the sake of better balance with such change.


Although I am also utterly surprised how archer hasnt gotten a nerf to its damage/instakill output (mostly bc all other classes have been significantly nerfed from their MCPVP OPness)....I hate to say it, but I strongly believe its instakill needs to stay - for the sake of countering stalemates and most especially for being a class noobs can pick up and, under default settings, easily kill stuff and have fun. #ShootTheSheep(NotMineSheep)OnMCParty coincidentally also has ez 1-shots & is engaging for having multiple moving targets & is lasting fun/not instantly boring for it being a slight challenge...so in the end it is balanced enough while being especially fun for it's readily awarded kills ... CTF on the otherhand involves competitive counter-play, which is where the balance for archer can and must be kept in check. If archer cant be effectively targeted to be countered, then its defense ought to be tweaked.


rip engineer. On top of finally fixing its broken infinite non-team oriented speed II... I most definitely would like to see its unique iconic turret (and possibly also a modified balanced teleporter) returned in some way whether through tweaking and implementing it into the current engineer, or turning the current engie into demoman and to bring back a more "structured" engineer with an actual in-game construction/building-orientation as with its turret creation and even with defensive semi-permeable barrier/wall additions as somewhat proposed on an idea thread...not to say that it would be immobile, but let it have structured mobility or mobile structures


I've already proposed my dwarf rework idea concept which is to basically give it default mobility and medium power, and then with its ability, to reduce its mobility when it wants an increase in power while dealing and/or receiving anti-knockback to/from opponents--- instead of always having its infamous immobility when it wants any sort of power ... while also including some sort of "increase dwarf sword damage relative to the damage it receives" either by default or after its power ability is activated


There are so many great necro ideas, compile and #buff it already hehe @Admiral_Munson

elf has already gotten all of the feedback necessary for implementing tests and for staff to ask input/clarification for more extreme class changes


welp i hope i didnt miss a class... soldier and heavy r gr8, keep being who u r
@trebrebr misleading clickbait thread title hiding ur other ideas, this will be reported.

 

yall r just typin paragraphs and im struggling with reading comprehenson

but yeah, i think chem just needs to have less pots to be honest, maybe 3 instant health, 8 dmg pots and 5 or 6 poisons? the healing output is a monkaW

 

Trebr: new Chemist is awful

Necro: hold my beer

 

I didn’t read half of the post, but that scout proposal is awful, no offense to you of course. It completely takes away from scouts ability to recover. I’ve been playing scout in every stalemate every ppm I have been in to test it’s effectiveness, and 90% of the time I recov or get close, it’s when the carrier is standing there’s blocking, I swap them away into a pyro or an Assassin or someone to help me get damage off as they’re isolated and I death tag them. If you do this, then you need to implement an idea like mine to kill stalemate

 

good point, ez fix = a flag carrier cannot block swaps ...would also be an interesting idea/buff for assassin and for anti-stalemates, for flag carriers to be unable to block an assassinate - they must rely on their team or mere luck

but what do u think of a double jump ability?
also forgot to add that i think scout is too squishy, so for every swap, it could regain its health (like assassin) so it actually has a chance to survive post-swap and it's not just a 1-and-done type of class (assuming death-tag gets a minor nerf), which tbh would make things more fun

 

*Archer however, is still super busted* - Easy fix to archer is however far the target is away the more damage the bow deals. However once it reaches thirty blocks the bow caps at 9 hearts. (Prevents insta kills and deals extreme damage). Example is 5 blocks 1/1/2. 10 blocks 3. 15 blocks 4/1/2. 20 blocks 6. 25 blocks 7/1/2. 30 blocks 9 hearts.

 

Bow spam zzzzz

 

Not really? Shots will be inconsistant. Also ide rather come against a useless bowspam archer, than an archer that can kill a whole offence in three shots?