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Where are we now?

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by Proterozoic, Oct 6, 2016.

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  1. Proterozoic

    Proterozoic Wiki Team is a Semi-Staff Rank

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    There is a large incoming text wall, you have been warned.

    A couple months ago I made a very long post (which you can check out [here]) detailing a lot of the major problems affecting CTF. The problems ranged from simple lag all the way up to calling out the staff for corruption. A couple months has passed since then, and lately I've been thinking about whether or not it had any real impact, and whether much has changed. After a lot of thought, I think the answer realistically has to be everything and nothing has changed. The staff around definitely have changed, with a few long term staff outright resigning, but a lot of the core problems with staff on brawl haven't really changed at all. This thread's really meant to be a review of what's changed and what really still needs to be done in order to make brawl a better place for everyone. The replies to the thread are also going to work in the same way as the last one as well- what you think of the problems brawl faces, the solutions you can potentially offer, and disagreement where you think I'm wrong about something. If criticising, please try and offer solutions because I don't want this to end up being just another complaint thread about how brawl's going to die and the staff are all terrible (which frankly are both lies anyway).
    Link to the Old thread: https://www.brawl.com/threads/59571/
    So let's get right to the elephant in the room, the massive shift in staff since my post. Back when I made that post, both @aRandomBob157 and @Quarrelt were still both moderators and on the ref committee. They'd both been there for god knows how long, and since have done what most thought unthinkable and resigned from their respective positions. I can't overstate how key this has changed things. These 2 contributed a lot of their time and effort into steering CTF to what they considered to be the best path. Now in my last post I wasn't exactly singing praises, but nevertheless I do appreciate all the hard work they put in for so long. I had hoped my post would be a wake-up call, and that it would hopefully stir them back into working well with the community and getting things changed for everyone for the better. Sadly, they decided not to continue their roles, but nevertheless this does bring a brand new opportunity about. Now these 2 important figures are gone, other new moderators can step in, and hopefully take CTF into a new direction. This effectively provides the new moderators a chance to put right the problems we had with the staff before - better interaction with the community, updates that were better sourced and so more popular. We can see attempts to improve connection with @Xelia_ posting the latest news from the ctf staff committee here: https://www.brawl.com/threads/61624/. What's more is that it also gives a chance for new active moderators who can come online more often, allowing more efficient moderating of the servers. I think personally that this is a really exciting opportunity to set right the problems we've been having over the past year and a half. With that said, they are big shoes to fill, so we might have to be a bit more patient with the new moderators, given they're less experienced at the job than bob and quarrelt were.

    Unfortunately, despite this, I think the same core problems people have with staff on brawl remain. Despite the change in people, brawl still proves to be very restrictive in the information it shares with the playerbase. This can be frustrating, especially when an update hasn't happened in a while. Being kept in the dark really annoys the playerbase because it can make it seem like the staff aren't listening what the players are suggesting, or that they just don't care about the gamemode at all. Some people even go a step further, like @Dankmastr_Memesn did by releasing the document on the necro rework. I can understand that brawl doesn't want to make promises about the gamemode that they cannot necessarily keep, but in this case couldn't information be released under the pretence that it isn't the final version and that things may well be changed before it's fully released. I'd honestly rather be kept aware of current plans than being left in the dark for months on end. Hopefully this news update from @Xelia_ will bring an end to the lack of communication and hopefully we'll continue to receive information and current plans, which will keep the community more settled (and less willing to leak documents as it seems.... bad @Dankmastr_Memesn)
    Feeding into this, I also talked for a fair amount of time on maps and how they prioritised aesthetics over gameplay. I don't believe anything has actually changed on the matter (and that order of priority should change, I'd rather have a good match than a match on a terrible, laggy yet pretty map) and I'd like to see that happen. Nevertheless, a new map wave has been released, and playing some of them this weekend I don't believe them to be that bad for gameplay at all. Obviously this is just a first testing and the true opinion will be generated once it's been in rotation for a couple weeks, but it seems that the builders have managed to get the balance of a good looking map with a map that's good for gameplay, and that's something I'm really excited about. The good gameplay maps currently in rotation have been there since mcpvp, and really have begun to become stale. Changing up the rotation maps will change gameplay. encourage new maps in ctf team matches (which will definitely change up the team scene) and bring a fresh perspective to the game, which is definitely needed if we want to make ctf popular again. Hopefully the maps in this rotation will last longer than they did in the first brawl rotation! (are any still left in rotation at the moment?) I'm also really pleased that the staff committee have adopted testing the new map rotations on the match server, because this way maps which are awful for gameplay can immediately be voted out before they even make the rotation, which is fantastic because then we don't have to deal with them for months ruining the gameplay in regular matches. I'm really happy that the staff listened to the community on the idea, so thanks to them. Similarly thanks to the map creators who're also working on gameplay as well as aesthetics!
    Sadly, despite all of this, some things haven't changed at all. Despite all of the good that has come about since my post, other things have remained as bad as they ever were (and in some cases actually getting worse). As I've already said, the culture embedded in the brawl staff seems to be not letting a lot of information reach the playerbase until it's absolutely necessary, and this does have it's drawbacks. Transparency on brawl still needs a lot of work, and this especially applies to the higher staff, not the jmods or mods. Brawl itself doesn't actually help itself with this. To best explain this, I'm going to go through something which I've been through recently, and hopefully you'll understand where I'm coming from.

    As most of you will probably already know, recently I applied for jmod. It may come a surprise to some as I've said in the past that I wouldn't be doing so (for a multitude of reasons which aren't really that important now. PM me if you want to know about that) but I decided to go against what I said and do it anyway. Now the reason why I did was because I wanted to try and put in motion the changes the playerbase wanted for quite some time, and which sadly haven't come about after the post I'd made. Not surprisingly I was denied (I wonder why I of all people was denied for jmod, yeah the sarcasm is real) but the reason for denial isn't why I'm bringing this up. You see, @Canoodle recently closed off the denial section for staff applications for public viewing, and explained in the post here: https://www.brawl.com/threads/61077/ that:
    "Players will now have a detailed denied explanation on their application. "

    This of course is a completely legitimate reason for closing off the denial section. I don't necessarily agree with it (surely the denial reasons would be a help to others) but I can understand the reasoning. However, I can safely tell you that the reason behind it is a total lie. The reason being the denial message I got for my application, which I'm going to screenshot:
    upload_2016-10-6_10-40-4.png
    (apologies for the small size of the screenshot)
    Yes everyone, my "detailed" denial message lasted exactly 27 words and 1 number! Not only that, but most of it wasn't even specific to me! 14 of the words (and the number for that matter) are posted onto every denial application! That leaves approximately 13 words which are both detailed and specific to me. I don't personally think detailed in any context describes a piece of text 27 words long, let alone the 13 which were specific to my application. It's not even as if maturity is a useful way to deny someone because maturity can many different things in context. It's just outright lack of communication on the part of @Canoodle here. Now obviously she did say in the post that I was welcome to message her if I had any questions, and given I got very little out of her post (as I'm sure practically anyone would) about what she meant in this context. She hasn't actually replied to me yet (I privately messaged her about 5 days ago at the time of writing this post) so to be honest, either she's forgotten or doesn't really want to answer. Either way how does this help anyone? This is honestly just lack of communication between the staff and the playerbase at this point, and the best bit is that it doesn't even help brawl, let me explain:

    Brawl moderators and other staff as you know aren't actually paid (aside from extremely high staff), meaning all of them are volunteers and work on the server to make it better for everyone. That means that staff applications are hugely important to brawl as it provides them with the volunteers to function properly (there'd be very few staff if no one voluteered for it!). This makes denied applications also really important. The vast majority of applications are denied, but most of the players involved are still potential staff, it's just they need to work on some minor/major issue. This means that feedback from these applications is extremely important, as telling the player in question what to do allows them to fix the issues they have and successfully apply in the future, giving more staff volunteers for brawl in the long run. This method of denial, where very little is said doesn't help anyone, because the denied applicant doesn't have a clue what issues to resolve, doesn't resolve them and then gets denied in the future. Brawl is actually shooting itself in the foot by denying itself potential staff in the future by its lacking of communication.

    A lot of you will point out that she said to do what @Xelia_ said. That is absolutely true, @Xelia_ s post wasn't actually that long and was unclear. In this case what I did was ask her about it over skype because I was unsure what she meant. She has already responded (despite me asking her after I pm'd @Canoodle ...) and she did explain what the problem was (not that it was actually related to maturity in my opinion after hearing her out, but whatever, besides the point). My point on the matter is that @Xelia_ isn't in charge of staff applications, and doesn't have to respond to these applications. @Canoodle on the other hand is in charge of staff and staff applications, it's literally her job to do this. Although she is a volunteer, as I've already said it benefits brawl in the long run for these to be done properly! This is just one example of the lack of communication between the staff and the playerbase that's going to harm brawl in the long run.

    I think this communication problem mainly rests with the higher staff, not with the lower staff. From what I gather the lower staff seem to be working very hard to listen to the community, to gather ideas and critically respond to suggestions, but it's really the higher staff who both hold the power and don't seem to be listening to the information the lower staff are providing. From what I gather the brawl system as a whole seems to work with three groups- the higher staff, the lower staff and the playerbase itself. From what I gather the higher staff don't seem to listen to the playerbase at all, as it seems the job of the lower staff is to be the intermediary, picking out good ideas and criticisms of the playerbase and passing it along. This means that the higher staff (the ones with the power) have no real connection to the playerbase itself, which I think is posing a really large problem for the system as a whole. Without that connection the higher staff make decisions without themselves consulting the player base, leading to poor decisions eg. the implementation of an idea the overall community doesn't actually want.

    The best thing that can be done to solve this problem is really quite simple. The higher staff also have to do the same thing as the lower staff. They can't just rely on the lower staff to do the job for them because A) ideas/criticisms/etc slip through the net and B) the higher staff interacting with the playerbase on matters like this engages them with community opinion, avoids bad decision making in the future. It's also got the added bonus of making the player base feel like they're being listened to, which I feel isn't really the case right now (or has changed since my last post on the matter). If people interact with each other, they better understand the other's point of view and are more willing and able to compromise with them. I believe the same is possible with the 2 groups which currently show little signs of interaction.
    On a completely different note, another seismic change has occurred on ctf since my last post. @NomNuggetNom, the long-standing coder has also resigned. This poses a massive challenge and delay for ctf. The gamemode already was in need of an update (seriously guys, necro has been this way for a year and a half now, this is ridiculous) and so having no coder is really going to hamper the efforts to change and update. This was pretty much inevitable, and was confirmed in the last ctf staff committee update. I don't know when ctf will get another coder, but I think it should be soon. Looking at the forums as a whole, ctf has the third biggest section, suggesting it's the third biggest gamemode (which you can see on the main forum page). On the brawl staff list, there are 6 coders. Given ctf is a big section and so has a big potential for future revenue, it would make sense to assign one of these coders to the ctf section. Nevertheless this can be hard to transfer, and so I believe a priority should be to get a coder for ctf from somewhere (internally or externally) before the gamemode stagnates, people leave and the gamemode dies. Until that happens however it's going to cause a further delay in any change to the classes, which is going to cause some frustration. Sadly until a new coder is found there's very little we can do about it, other than being patient.

    Feeding into that is the problem of lag. Since my last post, very little seems to have changed on this matter. It still feels laggy, the servers can't really handle the full 50 players on at once. I'm sure a lot of the players in Europe and Australia particularly are unhappy with the current system. Unfortunately there's very little that can be done aside from "better servers" Brawl doesn't really have a lot of money at the moment, and so money for a better server isn't really there. Additionally, given we don't have a coder at the minute we also can't code the game in such a way as to reduce lag. Sadly it's another situation where the community has to be patient and wait for a time when either brawl has the money, or a coder to help streamline the game and improve the lag situation. I'm sure this has possible given whilst the lag is bad, it isn't completely unplayable.

    Also feeding into that is the recent lack of updates we've got. It's now been about 18 months since necro first broke and honestly it's still fixed. Minor changes have been put in place (mostly because we didn't have the power for any major updates), but several classes definitely need to see changes if not complete reworks in order to improve gameplay from where it currently stands. Unfortunately without the coder, it's very unlikely we're going to see any change at all, and so it's vitally important than one is found, and soon so that the needed changes can be implemented. I am aware that the committee already has some ideas about these new updates which is encouraging to see. Unfortunately there's nobody able to implement them! Whilst a new coder is found, the community needs to be patient as right now ctf is physically unable to implement anything without a coder.
    Something that has changed for the worse has been the team system. Unfortunately the team system has been suffering quite a number of significant losses in the couple months since my last post. Firstly, the downscaling of the team system in general has lead to the loss of a number of teams (the flying walruses, phoenix, deception to name a few of many). Not only that, but the loss of @aRandomBob157 and @Quarrelt also meant the number of referees in the system was temporarily reduced, leading to a matches becoming unofficial where they should have been official, or outright cancelled. Thankfully, a new influx of jmods has increased the number of referees again to cover the losses and so has become less of an issue. With that said, it still hasn't solved the problem of the recent loss of interest and subsequent downscaling of the team system. This isn't going to be helped with schools recently starting once again and people becoming busy, as they have less time for games like ctf. This will inevitably mean that the team system may well continue to lose members over the next few months as well. The problem is not that they are leaving, but that new people are moving in to replace them. New people aren't necessarily aware of the team system, even after months of playing ctf. This means that they don't see the team section, don't apply or make new teams, and the system loses players until it becomes unsustainable.

    The major way to solve this would be to begin advertising ctf teams on the server itself. This could take the form of a recurring message which is placed on the ctf server which advertises teams and a forum link to the team server. It would require little effort (as easy as typing it into a message of the day box) and could really bring a lot of new ctf players into the team system. I think it should also partially be on the playerbase to help spread the word around about ctf teams. It actually benefits everyone in the team system if new people enter as there are more people to play matches against, new skills from new players are brought into the system, and new friends /rivalries can be made. Given the current downscaling rate, this advertisement should be implemented on the server as soon as possible in order to avoid the inability to recover the numbers.
    Something that really hasn't changed much at all has been the attitude towards criticism on brawl. Criticism really is still seen as directly attacking brawl, and staff do seem to have kept avoiding suggestion threads because of the harsh criticism they receive (although this has improved somewhat for certain members of staff). Although there's been a recent lack in insulting threads on the ctf section, there's still somewhat of a stigma where the staff try to avoid suggestions to avoid the insults. This is however slowly improving, as with certain members of staff there has been a notable increase in posts on suggestion threads. Hopefully this trend continues, so that there'll be a large amount of interaction between the 2 groups, and more suggestions will be implemented in the future (once ctf gets a coder of course). Although little change has been seen, this is something that really hasn't been given enough time to change and improve, so hopefully that will be something to look forward to in the future.
    So to sum up, a lot has changed . Old staff have gone, new staff are coming. They also say they have plans to update the classes (which I'd like to see sometime in the near future) and new maps. All of this sounds really promising, and if done right they're going to be able to draw some new people to the gamemode. I hope the trend also continues that they open updates onto the match server before they are released so that they can be community tested to avoid terrible ideas being implemented on the servers for months at a time. This definitely isn't however an excuse to become lazy after these updates go through, as ctf is still going to be in a less popular state than it has been in the past, and it's going need a lot more than one good update and map change to shake things up and draw a lot of new people in.

    Additionally, whilst a lot has changed, a lot of things haven't really changed much at all. Throughout all of this, the team system has effectively been left to stagnate, with little update to the front, no advertising to draw in new people and no events to keep the community already involved going. Additionally, the lack of refs, particularly in August, hindered the amount of official matches that could be played. This lead to a very quiet month losing players, few matches and nothing really exciting. Part of the team system revolves around regular ctf, and so class and map updates are going to have an effect on numbers in the team system. With that said, the team committee should probably consider coinciding the updates with some team events to really revitalise the system (new tournament?). As I said earlier, advertising the team system on the servers I think is going to become a necessity in order to replace the people we're currently losing from the team system.

    Another thing that's had no change is the lack of communication between the brawl staff (particularly higher staff) and the playerbase, and I think this really needs to change. How are the community supposed to trust or approve of staff decisions if they don't even communicate with them? This doesn't just apply to ctf but everywhere on brawl (as demonstrated with my example earlier). More transparency with updates, feedback, or even just staff opinion on ctf (and brawl in general) is vital. Right now brawl is treating the lower staff as having ideas better than the playerbase themselves (they handpick ideas or suggest their own, and send them to higher staff), and that is fundamentally flawed. Everyone's ideas have merit, some I have no doubt are going to be even better than ideas the lower staff pick or suggest themselves. To discount them, or weigh them as less important because they're not staff is frankly ridiculous. This isn't to say that the jmods have bad ideas, in fact a lot of the time they're good. What I'm saying is that the ideas should be treated as no more important whether they came from a staff member or not. I think realistically the only way to do this is for higher staff to start interacting with the community as well. I've written that in the context of ideas, but it also applies for feedback (moderator applications, criticism of a suggest/method, staff effectiveness at that time, etc). It also applies to the lack of information the brawl staff tell the playerbase. The community is definitely more likely to understand a position if they understand the reasoning behind it, and sadly that information isn't being given at the moment. I'm not saying the staff should reveal everything (secret events etc can be a great surprise) but it would be nice right now if anything were to be revealed (we still haven't gotten any details about how necro is going to be changed, even despite @Dankmastr_Memesn leaking the document!

    Finally, the lack of a coder really wasn't something ctf needed right now, and it's going to allow the game to stagnate even more whilst a new one is found. It should be a top priority to find one before people get sick of the lack of fixes/updates, and leave. Hopefully whether the new coder is internal or external, that'll be within the next month or so.

    So, what do you think? Do you agree with me? Do you disagree? What do you think can be done to improve the situation?
    I said last time that I'd consider making a Too Lazy to read section, so here it is!
    -Staff Changes mean new opportunity to improve CTF
    -Brawl is restrictive in the information lower staff can give to the playerbase, which can be frustrating
    -Hopefully the new map rotation will focus on aesthetics AND gameplay
    -Staff communication feedback and criticism (particularly from higher staff) needs serious improvements
    -We don't have a coder, which is going to have a delaying effect on both fixing lag issues and implementing any updates. We just have to be patient and it should be a priority to get another
    -The team system is stagnating and needs advertisement to draw in new players, and events to keep the incumbents interested
    -The attitude towards criticism hasn't really changed that much but I have started to notice some lower staff more often including their input to ideas, which is a good sign
    Do let me know if you want me to make another one of these sections if I do decide to make a third one of these in the future. Of course all the information is important but obviously some people aren't inclined to read thousands and thousands of words.
     
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  2. Avivox

    Avivox Well-Known Member

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    tltr the tltr section :/
     
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  3. MattM1PVP

    MattM1PVP Ex-HG Staff Member

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    Most of the time it's not that we don't want to share info, it's that we aren't allowed to. We have strict rules to keep everything within the staff team until we have made a decision.

    We don't release info just because of this. We don't want to create false hype and fail to live up to it, and instead of telling the community what we're doing, we get hate and flame

    I didn't read the rest coz I was too lazy to, I'm sorry
     
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  4. ACE_BLUE2

    ACE_BLUE2 Sup'

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    I just read the whole thing, yay for me I suppose. The whole thing about the lack of communication is pretty accurate, it's hard to describe the warm fuzzy feeling I got when 3 amazing mods actually told us whats going on.

    With regarding criticism, the community feedback is usually painfully accurate (probably a little too painful). Our feed back is like giving moderators band-aids after rubbing salt in the wound; at that point the actual feedback is generally unwelcome. To simplify, a large portion of criticism here on ctf is:
    "This sh*t is broken af, get ur sh*t together (insert unlucky mod/non-existant coder here) , fix the damn bug"
    ^this is generally followed by a few people disagreeing, and leaving probably the entire staff totally confused. If one is going to give criticism
    1) address the issue
    2) include how to solve the issue
    3) leave their "sh*t" out of it (basically don't include insults or comments that are generally unhelpful)

    Great thread lord, this, of course, was all my opinion.
     
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  5. Proterozoic

    Proterozoic Wiki Team is a Semi-Staff Rank

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    Yeah, totally understand. I did actually mention that in one of the parts on how you were restricted from telling us. It's sad because I know the vast majority of staff on brawl are there as volunteers, and so it's painful to tell them that the system being used is frustrating for the community, and not really very useful for anyone anyway! The hype thing is true, but personally I'd rather be disappointed and know whats going on than being completely in the dark and end up being unhappy and disappointed with the update anyway. At least when you're being told whats happening, there's a chance to stop anything bad with negative feedback before it's actually implemented

    @K_O_100 I'm not making it any shorter :stuck_out_tongue:
     
  6. pandanielxd

    pandanielxd its panda daniel

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    my mobile wifi can't load this page
     
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  7. Ninsanity

    Ninsanity Yoshi Legend and Medic Main

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    A very well stated thread. I agree on most of the things you have stated here, and it is kinda frustrating with a lot of the recent resignations. I think as a community though we should try and stay positive and help the newer staff members migrate into the system. Also, as you said, this is a perfect time to try and get some more activity going on as well as many other things. I know I would and @Gamtokage would like to get some more activities going on, and I know we have talked alot about different things we could do individually like 2 months ago :stuck_out_tongue:. With these new staff members this would probably be easier and encouraged especially since it keeps people doing new things that don't require a coder. Overall I hope we can make good out of these resignations and keep pushing foward.
     
  8. MattM1PVP

    MattM1PVP Ex-HG Staff Member

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    The only thing that we're allowed to tell is: "Hey, nice idea, I've brought this up to the staff team". I'm not too sure if we're even allowed to say stuff like "your idea was accepted/denied"
     
  9. 19Cameron91

    19Cameron91 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. There's this thing called War 2.0. It was announced several years ago. To this day, it's still in development. Disappointment has swept the War community due to 2.0's long development process.
     
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  10. Ninsanity

    Ninsanity Yoshi Legend and Medic Main

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    Agreed, and that is a very good reason, but at the other end of the spectrum, we have been completely in the dark about necro's progress and what it will be. That has made me and many others very frustrated at the staff team just because we have received very little information about it. I think a good idea is to be somewhere in between, don't keep us in the dark, but don't explain everything that's going on. Just state it is being worked on and here are a few ideas we are thinking about.
     
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  11. Magnificent

    Magnificent Dallas Fuel

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    team system lol
     
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  12. CommunistBelgian

    CommunistBelgian Well-Known Member

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    Where are you now????
     
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  13. Shawn_

    Shawn_ Playing CTF and making maps since 2012

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    I think we should just wait.



    Haha! Get it?

    On a serious note, I like the goals that staff are setting to become more catered to the community such as being allowed to test new maps.
     
  14. Nohox

    Nohox [MCPVP]

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    In regards to Necro, I offered making the document available for the community to see if there was the demand, but Admiral was the only one to comment on it, and he knows it anyway. As by that time we still had no confirmation Nom could work on it, and by now, have no Nom to work on it, it might be better to keep it set back until we do have the capabilities for testing it. Otherwise I fear it might turn into another of those empty threads, where someone in a few months asks "Hey, didn't you make that thread, what happened to it?" (Which is also exactly what happened to the very first WiKi_KiKi necro thread too). :pompous:
     
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  15. Lord_Roke

    Lord_Roke Forever the Forums Watchdog
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    I agree with you, decisions could be based on the community opinion more if the higher staff members were interacting more with the playerbase. But unfortunately we can never interact as much with the community as the Mods/JMods or get connected to the community as good as they are.
    There are 33 Mods/JMods and 8 higher staff members (not counting Yinscape and the Devs, interacting with the community is really not their task) so interacting as much is logically not possible. On top of this, all SMods have one specific server to manage and all Admins have to do work behind the scenes, on global systems and on new servers. Mods/JMods also are a lot more in-game and thus interact more with the community. Because of this the lower staff will always be more informed about the opinion of the community, so I think it makes a lot of sense to have them as an intermediary. In the end the lower staff will often come up with an idea (sometimes from community suggestions), discuss it among themselves and ask for approval of either the SMod Manager or an Admin once they believe the idea is finished. This means higher staff members have the power to decide what will be added, but mostly don't create these ideas and also accept or deny them based on the opinion of the staff members for the gamemode. If we are unsure if an idea is good and/or the lower staff is also tied, we can for example post a forums poll to determine the opinion of the community.
    An approach to solve this issue is the SMod Manager system: There is one designated SMod for each server who should come up with suggestions and event ideas themself and listen to the ideas of the lower staff and the community. If there is no designated SMod, the lower staff of one server can still organize theirself (like CTF) and bring up ideas to the Admins directly. Right now there is unfortunately a lack of initiative from some staff members, higher and lower staff, making the SMod Manager system less effective. We have asked all SMods multiple times to engage more in Server ideas, if you have an idea on how to make the system more efficient, please tell us.

    CTF is definitely a popular gamemode, but we do lack coders right now: ThaRedstoner is only a Developer to fix any issues related to BAC, yqt1001 left us and D3RGPS31 is a web developer.
    This leaves us with Totom3, who should definitely focus on War 2.0, Signatured, who is doing a lot of work behind the scenes, and Mario, who is working on Wild West and Raid.
    Brawl has 9 servers and only 2 coders who could potentially work on small updates, so please give us some time either for them to get familiar with the CTF code or to convince Nom to do these updates in his free time.

    Constructive criticism is appreciated - unfortunately most criticism posted is neither constructive nor respectful in any way. It is almost impossible to respond to complaints politely if they are insulting us, claiming we don't care about the server or are discontent with literally anything we do. So instead of replying angrily we sometimes resort to not commenting at all.
    Threads like yours for example are very helpful - we can see the opinion of the community summarized and without having to go through impolite and false claims.

    As I have explained above the higher staff can impossibly be as informed about a gamemode and the community opinion, so we trust the lower staff members to mirror the opinion of the community and if we are unsure we will post a community poll (if the lower staff/SMods didn't already themself). We are not weighing ideas based on who suggests them, but in the end we will almost only hear suggestions from inside the staff team so the issue you pointed can exist.
    However, the lower staff is as interested in improving the gamemode as the community members posting ideas, so Mods/JMods should be able to bring up good community ideas along with their own.

    Nohox explained above why the Necro document wasn't published.
     
    • Like x 4
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    #15 Lord_Roke, Oct 6, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
  16. EmperorTrump45

    EmperorTrump45 Dank Memer

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    Hi my name is Admiral, I have read none of the OP and I just popped in here to speak to this. I was not 'the only one' asking for more transparency with regards to reworks. You know how I know that? Because on the thread which you responded to, I got 10 likes, 6 agree ratings, and 6 winner ratings (among others, about two dozen total). The poll I also posted on that thread 'Do you agree?' (also with regards to transparency) got 67.7% 'yes' votes (out of a total of 31 votes). Both of those things, along with the fact that most of the comments were in agreement seems to be one hell of an indicator to me that yes, quite a few people on the forums would like to see some of the details of these reworks so that they can actually have a real say in what changes are made on CTF before they actually happen. I'd imagine some of those changes would include the Necro rework, the thread for which was deleted several hours after I posted it. Just because you didn't get a bunch of PM's saying "NOHOX SHOW US THE NECRO REWORK" does not mean that no one gave a damn about seeing what's inside the box of goodies the staff have been working on since 2013. Speaking of which, the only reason why I know about the Necro rework is because a staff member (who had literally just seen the rework himself) gave it to me because both of us were tired of constantly suggesting ideas for the infinitely many ways to improve Necro, not getting much to any consideration for those ideas (I have actually been told by other people that staff members pay attention to my threads. How they know this and I don't is a mystery to me), and waiting for a rework (which is the minor issue for me. I don't care about getting updates whenever I want them that's an absurdly selfish attitude to have). I think it is flat out wrong to tell people, many of whom paid for Necro, that not only was their payment a bust but for all they know their feedback on how to make the class worth their $2.50 does not matter.

    I get what you're saying about coder availability, not wanting to overhype people when updates can't happen for a while, (etc. etc.), and that's fine. But how hard would it be to put a disclaimer in a thread for example, a Necro rework, saying: "We do not have a coder right now so it will be some time before anything in this thread can be put in the game"? Bam. Problem solved.

    Instead what the staff team has done (in the past) has been to repeatedly tease a mysterious rework, like the Necro rework, and other equally mysterious reworks and updates for months, then dump them on the forums and in game community all at once (and often without warning), blame said community for being 'overly critical' when they don't like those ideas when they are released (CTF Tweak Update, Elf class release to a lesser degree), and use the negative reactions as an excuse for even less transparency. And if that's not the case then why did @NomNuggetNom make a massive post in an old topic by @Sibs talking about how the community is the problem here? The community is not the problem. The problem is a stupid system that places 'not wanting to over-excite people' below taking supposedly less important people's ideas and suggestions into actual consideration whether they be low level staff or forum members. Everyone has something to contribute here. There is a way to tell people that updates will be slow to happen while still including them in the process. That way is exactly what was done in @Quarrelt's and @wintergreen3's update threads (along with Quarr's Pyro rework thread about a year back) and they both worked out very well. @b0squet's thread on community testing of maps before the next wave is awesome as well. I don't think it's too much to ask for the same sort of thing to be done for reworks.
     
    #16 EmperorTrump45, Oct 6, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
  17. AriesRam10

    AriesRam10 Old MCPVP'er

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    I think they should just change some stuff. People want a Necro rework, (bias yes I know) give them one. Make one completely out of the blue and change it one day. Don't tell any of the players and see how it goes. Could be interesting, some people may not like it. But thats the kind of stuff that makes the game mode new and interesting. Better in the long run then trying to appeal to everyone or being scared of what people may say.
     
  18. 19Cameron91

    19Cameron91 Well-Known Member

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    As long as I've played CTF, and from my point of view, CTF has always been stagnant with updates. Even before coming to Brawl. There were a few tweaks here and there, and there was elf, but that's about it.
    Can someone prove me wrong? I'd really like for them to. :stuck_out_tongue:
     
  19. Proterozoic

    Proterozoic Wiki Team is a Semi-Staff Rank

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    @Lord_Roke
    Firstly, I never expected you to have the ability to be as interactive with the playerbase as the jmods and mods. That would be an unfair expectation given there are fewer of you and ultimately you also have other responsibilities. My issue isn't that I expect you to be interacting with us as much, it's closer to that you're barely interacting with us at all. It's really, really rare that I see posts from admins on threads like this (which on a side note I'd like to thank you for taking the time to actually read and respond to my post) and I think that could only be to the detriment of brawl itself. My worry is not that the mods aren't as in touch, but more that the higher staff aren't in touch. Whilst the mods do a great job, they can only relay so much of the opinions and views of the community, and they can only get their perspective on the situation. The higher staff also need to be involved in interacting to a lesser extent because you guys ultimately also need to know the basics of what most of us are on about. I don't really see that happening. I said in my post earlier that I talked to @Xelia_ about what she meant on my moderator application thread, and in the same conversation she told me that @Canoodle went and asked her about me, and that the decision had it's base there. Now I'm not criticising her for listening to an able moderator who's well informed on the gamemode, but given the lack of response, I think she should have probably taken a look at some of the posts I've made on the forums in the past, just to get more idea of the sense of who I was. In that instance I'm pretty sure there straight up wasn't interaction at all. I can't blame her for being busy but this is the kind of situation where higher staff really need to start interacting, because they can give helpful feedback (rather than 27 words) and hopefully get some new really effective staff in the future. That doesn't just apply in that situation, but server suggestions, map choices, and a whole host of other applications. Take another example, I could ask you right now what my opinion is of me, and you'd be able to say very little. After reading just a few of the well over 1000 posts I've made here, and you'd be able to give me a proper answer. It really doesn't take a lot of interaction to make a massive difference and improvement for everyone just by interacting and getting to know the playerbase.

    Yeah, I do have an idea. Currently the system looks a bit like this:
    upload_2016-10-6_20-19-31.png
    The reason being the higher staff members aren't spending any great length of time interacting with the general player base. The vast majority of the information they get comes from the lower staff, the moderators. Now I talked about problems associated with this indirect link. However I'm going to point out again that this indirect leads to staff who don't really have their own accurate opinion or breadth of knowledge about the playerbase because it's all indirectly obtained through mods, and ultimately a lot of that information the playerbase putting out is lost through the middleman ie the lower staff. The way I see it, there are 2 main ways we can go about this. The first is that we create new links between the high staff and the regular playerbase. The other way (and the one you're describing) is to improve the connection between the lower staff and the playerbase, so that more information is relayed to you guys. I've got a couple ideas which can work around this and hopefully benefit everyone, staff or regular player.

    The first method involves strengthening the staff. The best way to do this would be specialising. Sadly, it's not really possible to fully specialise given admins ultimately have limited time on their hands and can't look at everything (which I don't really expect you to using this formula). I believe there are 3 admins (not counting yinscape who I believe you said hasn't got the job of interacting with the community). There are 10 gamemodes. My suggestion is that you each take 3 (4 for one, but make sure 2 of them are small gamemodes). These are the sections you personally focus your interactions on. Obviously you can't be expected to be anywhere near as interactive as the mods. With those particular gamemodes, pop up when you can and give a bit of criticism here and there on some of the suggestions in the forums, have a look around, post and let people know about them. Suggestions for that particular gamemode would go to the admin overseeing that. That way there's a defined admin who's around in that gamemode for both staff and players to go to. I'm not expecting you to interact as much, but each of you concentrating on certain gamemodes will give you guys more time for each, meaning you'll be better able to interact with them and ultimately be more informed about the people and the suggestions that come your way. By using this method the diagram becomes:
    upload_2016-10-6_20-36-31.png

    The other idea involves specialising mods and jmods. This would be going further than what you've already implemented with smods. Similarly to admins, there are relatively few smods, and although they're in charge of the gamemode their time is limited. Breaking down mod and jmod roles so that certain members of staff focus on the team system, whilst others focus on updates and suggestions, whilst others focus on regular discussion. All moderators would still perform their normal duties (catch hackers, chat moderation and whatever) but specialising them like this would allow them to focus on one thing for more of the time, allowing them to send more information to the smods and subsequently the admins. In essence it would look a bit like this:
    upload_2016-10-6_20-42-9.png
    Failing specialisation, the simplest (if riskier) method of improving communication is to get more staff members. That could lower the quality of staff however. My position on that would be that @Canoodle should be providing more useful information about denial messages so that members of the community that have been recently denied have a better idea of what to fix for the future. I daresay I'm not the only one who's had a 28 word response. This is also not to say you could use both ideas in conjunction, and I encourage anyone else who's got any ideas on the matter to put it down in this chat, that's what it's for after all
    To that end, a ctf smod would be helpful to help coordinate the gamemode at the moment


    I'm sure everyone is willing to be patient and put up with the lack of updates for a bit longer given you guys don't even have a coder familiar with the ctf code. Like I said in the main text, I think it should be one of the priorities for a coder for ctf to be found soon given it's popularity, but obviously this isn't something that can be just solved overnight.


    completely understand the reasoning behind not wanting to comment on posts which are insulting. You guys are clearly volunteering your free time to make this place better for everyone. The least people should be doing in return is being respectful (and in my case the least I can do is create threads thousands of words long in the hope that it'll actually create some change for the better). With that said, the problem with insulting posts is it can lead to the overlooking of threads which actually aren't insulting and have a lot of good ideas. I think that when that happens it's a great shame, as those people didn't do anything wrong and want to improve the place just as much as I do.

    You see, here's the problem in the logic. You're saying that you guys are trusting the lower staff members to mirror the opinion of the community. The problem is that it's not physically possible for the moderators to do that. Discounting personal bias, of which I'm sure basically everyone on this planet is guilty of, even the moderators, even though they have the best intentions for the gamemode fail in that they can't always mirror the community feel. Even when they're doing it right it's not a perfect mirror. In short, the mods as hard as they try are no substitute for the community itself, and so because they're the mediators things get lost in transferral. What really needs to happen is either more communication between the lower staff and the playerbase, and/or communication between the higher staff and the playerbase. Yeah, it's never going to be perfect, it's never going to be a perfect mirror, but at least doing that will make it closer to the reality, and so brawl will ultimately make decisions which are more likely to be acceptable to the playerbase
    Again, I'd just like to take the time to say thank you for actually reading and responding to the document, and hopefully this'll bring about some change
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Lord_Roke

    Lord_Roke Forever the Forums Watchdog
    Retired Staff

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    I read almost all forums posts on serious discussions already, but I primarily scan them for rule violations and content, not for information about the character of the creator. Once again we trust the staff members specifically assigned to the server to give us input.
    I can not speak for @Canoodle regarding the application system.

    Your first suggestion is exactly what the SMod Manager system is aimed at. SMods are hand-picked based on the usual staff requirements but also their involvement in a server. They are part of the higher staff team and chickenputty has stated on multiple occasions before that he considers them as "Admins", who are supposed to organize the gamemode they have been assigned to. They are also the defined person to go to for suggestions and events for both the staff team and the community. For minor changes they can go directly to the developer, we Admins just like to know what's happening without changing much.
    Right now the feedback from the SMod Managers is lacking a bit, we will discuss with them soon how it can be improved.

    I think one server is small enough so JMods and Mods assigned to it can have an overview of all areas. If necessary they can always create smaller working groups for one specific issue. That is up to the SMod Manager and/or the server staff to decide.

    The CTF staff team was always very well organized without assigning one person the duty of supervising it. In the past Nom partially took up that job, right now we don't see an urgent need nor a perfectly fit candidate for this position.

    As said, I read most forums threads/posts so I also see the constructive criticism. I will only reply though if the things I wanted to point out have not been stated yet.

    Once and if the SMod Manager system works fully communication between higher staff and their assigned server should definitely increase. We will also try to increase the amount of community polls/opinion threads and we are looking into a never tool to get to know the community opinion better.
     
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